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This Minimal Techno / Dubstep ting ?

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stealth
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« on: February 14, 2007, 12:01:59 »

There seems to be a lot of buzz building about a Minimal Techno & Dubstep crossover ATM. To be honest, minimal techno leaves me 100% stone cold (sounds like coffee-table techno IMO), but Tom Peverelist's 'Erstwhile Rhythm' is simply genius and seems to be at the centre of this hype, along with Pinch's 'Qawwali' amongst others.

So are the similarity of sounds just a coincidence, or are we on the cusp of an exciting twist in the dubstep continuum ?
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« Reply #1 on: February 14, 2007, 12:05:49 »

Very much so an exciting twist...HOWEVER, the introduction of this may cause dubstep to go even further overground as maybe more people 'get' 4/4 rhythm than dubstep's patterns, maybe? Not IMO but just feel there is that potential now, it sits at a crossroads to where it goes now...I think you've been listening to the wrong techno - 'minimal' is just a buzzword like any other and IMO it's all just techno.

But one thing is for sure - this year is going to be very interesting in the development of both scenes...
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« Reply #2 on: February 14, 2007, 12:12:31 »

As we all know, I am somewhat 4 to the floor challenged. And having listened to a couple of minimal techno people recently, I am on the fence a bit. When it's done well and the right influences are involved then this techno inspired dubstep is fucking rocking. Peverelist's tunes are evidence of this, as well as DMZ's Left Leg Out and Changes. I just hope dubstep keeps it's synocpation and shuffles because shit gets boring as soon as people treat beats as metronomes (which seems to happen all to often in techno).
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« Reply #3 on: February 14, 2007, 12:15:27 »

I've heard Puffin Jack do the minimal/dubstep thing together and it sounded great. When you think about Basic Channel stuff, the connection isn't that hard to imagine.
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« Reply #4 on: February 14, 2007, 12:15:39 »

the introduction of this may cause dubstep to go even further overground as maybe more people 'get' 4/4 rhythm than dubstep's patterns, maybe?

That's a very good point. I'm not against Dubstep gaining more popularity at all,especially if peeps from Bristol are the main reason for it, as long as the quality control is high. Unfortunately, Dubstep's rise in popularity last year did lead to a massive amount of crap being produced. It would be a shame if this 'hybrid sound' meant yet more crap being put out there.  Undecided
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« Reply #5 on: February 14, 2007, 12:16:46 »

Because I come from more of a techno background it's the other way round for me, things like Anti-War Dub made Dubstep more interesting to me...it took me a while to 'understand' dubstep but now I can enjoy it without sctaching my head! Plus there's almost as many sub-genres in it as techno  Bad Teeth
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« Reply #6 on: February 14, 2007, 12:17:35 »

err, Villalobos vs Pinch on the upcoming Breezeblock??


I dunno, I'm all for cross-pollination, but if every halfwit bedroom producer jumps on 4/4 like they did the halfstep last year it will be just as counter-productive. The crossover with minimal has been of interest to me more because it harks back to the early days of dubstep (or any burgenoning scene for that matter) when there used to be experimentation, producers drawing influence from outside a scene rather than within.


Anyway I'm more excited about TRG's stuff and Peverelist's Roll With The Punches than any of the 4/4 stuff about atm. And the new Toasty stuff. And Scuba. And some new kid known as 'Joe'. And this new untitled Zomby riddim. In fact I'm more excited about new tunes & producers in dubstep right now than I have been in a long time.
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« Reply #7 on: February 14, 2007, 12:18:26 »

Bit harsh on minimal mate, you sure you listening to the right stuff and not just what is currently being played by Tong et al? Have you ever checked Basic Channel or Sahko? I remember around the time of the first Tempa releases there was a lot of similarf talk saying how Horsepower were the Croydon equivalent of Basic Channel, because of the way they approached Garage. ie. dubbed out reductionism.

I think it can only be good thing for the two to move closer together, dubstep could learn a lot from techno's sonic palette. I mean I like dubstep, a lot, but some of the productions are let down by the er, productions. Take Geoim for example, I love his stuff but he could really tighten his sounds up a bit, they sound too sludgy sometimes. He should maybe send his tracks to Stefan Betke aka Pole to be mastered!

If you check www.hardwax.de, probably the best techno shop in Europe you will see they have been all over dubstep for a while. Did anyone else know that the grime remix on that Modeselektor 12" from last year was actually by Sleep Archive?

Also Pete I think you are a little unfair saying about the metronome thing, a lot of more interseting, recent techno has a more syncopated feel to it, not a strict 4/4, leave that to the hard housers, and anyway how many dubstep records have that same boring halfstep beat?

as long as there is intersting music coming out its all good  Two Thumbs

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« Reply #8 on: February 14, 2007, 12:22:16 »

@ Andy Payback: Got a link for that mix mate ?

Anyway I'm more excited about TRG's stuff and Peverelist's Roll With The Punches than any of the 4/4 stuff about atm. And the new Toasty stuff

Fuckin'  Script
I'd prefer more syncopation and garage vibes then minimal influences any day.

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« Reply #9 on: February 14, 2007, 12:23:42 »

oh yeah and by the way, I love posts like this! Gives you a chance to get fired up, beats people taking the piss out of scrampy all day..
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« Reply #10 on: February 14, 2007, 12:23:49 »

Totally agree Puffster, however minimal has befallen the same fate as many sub-genres where a few years back it was ripe with experimentation and now big name producers with no real idea about the style have realised it's a money maker and put out increasingly boring stuff. Or were, as they've all switched over to electrohouse. If dubstep is the sound to revitalise the minimal scene then I'm all for it. I've got very bored of minimal due to the quality control going out of the window, five years back it seemed something amazing was being released every week...now it's all abit, well, tired.
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« Reply #11 on: February 14, 2007, 12:27:50 »

if every halfwit bedroom producer jumps on 4/4 like they did the halfstep last year it will be just as counter-productive.

Love what I've heard but if this "crossover" gets too hyped it will result in a brief period of excitement followed by extended boredom.
The whole genre thing is long, people should be doing what they feel and thats that. I know we all need names to chat about music but I dont see the dubstep/minimal crossover as that big a deal, IMO these crossovers are usually a lot more organic than people make out and rather than a deliberate attempt to "crossover" its just the product of 2 (or more) sounds developing and bumping into each other  Undecided
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« Reply #12 on: February 14, 2007, 12:29:59 »

oh yeah and by the way, I love posts like this! Gives you a chance to get fired up, beats people taking the piss out of scrampy all day..

 Script

Exactly why I did it mate, the 'Jack seems to be lacking topics like this at present.  Undecided

As for your earlier post, I do love Basic Channel stuff, but IMO it's not really 'dancefloor' fodder, but then again I haven't heard it on a loud system, so I could be balking tollocks !

Also, maybe I haven't listened to decent minimal - help a brother out !  Grin
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« Reply #13 on: February 14, 2007, 12:30:25 »

Totally agree Puffster, however minimal has befallen the same fate as many sub-genres where a few years back it was ripe with experimentation and now big name producers with no real idea about the style have realised it's a money maker and put out increasingly boring stuff. Or were, as they've all switched over to electrohouse. If dubstep is the sound to revitalise the minimal scene then I'm all for it. I've got very bored of minimal due to the quality control going out of the window, five years back it seemed something amazing was being released every week...now it's all abit, well, tired.

You say that but recently, and I mean in the last six months there has been some brilliant Berlin style minimal coming out. Ost Gut Ton is my new favourite label, proper minimal. Also the return of Substance and Vanquer has been greatly appreciated, and correct me if i'm wrong but Monolake is absolutely killing it at the mo! If you want to check a good dubstep/minimal crossover check the ultra slo-mo Substance remix of Monolake, tis superb!

On the other hand there is loads of shit coming out on the minimal scene, a trawl through the new releases at Chemical will show you that. Fucking bandwagon jumpers. I remeber when minimal was a dirty word!
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« Reply #14 on: February 14, 2007, 12:31:57 »

Dubstep = Croydon techno (some Bad Teeth)

Dont think this is particuarly new, stuff like Twis Up Vip sounds like techno to me regardless of wether the beat is 4/4, it is more the feel of it.

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« Reply #15 on: February 14, 2007, 12:34:02 »

Totally agree Puffster, however minimal has befallen the same fate as many sub-genres where a few years back it was ripe with experimentation and now big name producers with no real idea about the style have realised it's a money maker and put out increasingly boring stuff. Or were, as they've all switched over to electrohouse. If dubstep is the sound to revitalise the minimal scene then I'm all for it. I've got very bored of minimal due to the quality control going out of the window, five years back it seemed something amazing was being released every week...now it's all abit, well, tired.

You say that but recently, and I mean in the last six months there has been some brilliant Berlin style minimal coming out. Ost Gut Ton is my new favourite label, proper minimal. Also the return of Substance and Vanquer has been greatly appreciated, and correct me if i'm wrong but Monolake is absolutely killing it at the mo! If you want to check a good dubstep/minimal crossover check the ultra slo-mo Substance remix of Monolake, tis superb!

On the other hand there is loads of shit coming out on the minimal scene, a trawl through the new releases at Chemical will show you that. Fucking bandwagon jumpers. I remeber when minimal was a dirty word!

Don't get me wrong, minimal still has it's place, and I do like a lot of Monolake's stuff, but the days when a nice bit of Eulberg or a new Sweet N Candy release fired me up are long gone. Ironically I'm working on doing a minimal mix with old stuff at the mo with Ozer, Guido Schneider etc etc...pretty dark stuff which is the end of the spectrum I enjoyed.
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« Reply #16 on: February 14, 2007, 12:38:12 »

I wouldnt say minimal, but 'techy' .. it makes dubstep a lot more attractive to me .. looking forward to what is yet to come  Slayer


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« Reply #17 on: February 14, 2007, 12:38:21 »

oh yeah and by the way, I love posts like this! Gives you a chance to get fired up, beats people taking the piss out of scrampy all day..

 Script

Exactly why I did it mate, the 'Jack seems to be lacking topics like this at present.  Undecided

As for your earlier post, I do love Basic Channel stuff, but IMO it's not really 'dancefloor' fodder, but then again, I haven't heard it on a loud system, so I could be balking tollocks !

Also, maybe I haven't listened to decent minimal - help a brother out !  Grin



Yes! hijack needs it Two Thumbs

I know what you mean about Basic Channel, on first appearances it could seem a little dull (especially on the CD which sounds almost ambient!) but they really come alive over a good system. You start to hear shit in them you never have before, a lot of the sounds are so subtle you don'y notice them at first. In terms of Basic Channel I would recomend Phylps Track 2, one of my all time favourites as well as any of the Quadrant releases. Basic Channel's sister label, M also had some brilliant stuff on it, aimed more at dubbed out dancefloors. Check M4, M5 and Domina are probably the best. Also there is a great Carl Craig remix of Domina.

More recent stuff I could recomend pretty much anything on Luciano's Cadenza label, its a bit more tripped out and spacey. Villalobos's best work is probably 'Achso' which appears on the Cadenza. As I think of some more stuff you might like i'll post it up, my head is full of cold and I feel really groggy so may be a while....
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« Reply #18 on: February 14, 2007, 12:42:57 »

Dont think this is particuarly new

haha .. I was waiting for that  Roll Eyes

no doubt it's particulary new, but now its becoming trendy  Bad Teeth

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« Reply #19 on: February 14, 2007, 12:43:36 »

I would recommend Phylps Track 2, one of my all time favourites as well as any of the Quadrant releases.

Aaaah yes mate, I absolutely LUUURVE that track. Love

Will definitely check out the other recommendation though, nice one.  Smiley
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« Reply #20 on: February 14, 2007, 12:48:35 »

Bit harsh on minimal mate, you sure you listening to the right stuff and not just what is currently being played by Tong et al? Have you ever checked Basic Channel or Sahko? I remember around the time of the first Tempa releases there was a lot of similarf talk saying how Horsepower were the Croydon equivalent of Basic Channel, because of the way they approached Garage. ie. dubbed out reductionism.

I think it can only be good thing for the two to move closer together, dubstep could learn a lot from techno's sonic palette. I mean I like dubstep, a lot, but some of the productions are let down by the er, productions. Take Geoim for example, I love his stuff but he could really tighten his sounds up a bit, they sound too sludgy sometimes. He should maybe send his tracks to Stefan Betke aka Pole to be mastered!

If you check www.hardwax.de, probably the best techno shop in Europe you will see they have been all over dubstep for a while. Did anyone else know that the grime remix on that Modeselektor 12" from last year was actually by Sleep Archive?

Also Pete I think you are a little unfair saying about the metronome thing, a lot of more interseting, recent techno has a more syncopated feel to it, not a strict 4/4, leave that to the hard housers, and anyway how many dubstep records have that same boring halfstep beat?

as long as there is intersting music coming out its all good  Two Thumbs



Well, I must admit my exposure to Minimal Techno is somewhat limited, I have only been to a couple of nights that have played it. The first I thoroughly enjoyed and was really impressed with the level of design and arrangement in the tunes, the really carried the tunes along. But the second, with Andy Stott (don't really know what you class him as) played loads of techno and it was really really dull. Peverelist played a really really heavily techno inspired set at Cosies (I think it was at Cosies...) and to be honest, it wasn't as enjoyable as I had hoped. I thoroughly enjoyed the sound design and attention to detail, but again the beats and lack of syncopation just bored me after a while and I fear i am going to be unable to shake this lust for actual break beats and irregular rhythms. Even when DMZ do do their techno inspired beats, the rhythms themselves are geniously invented. Bury the Bwoy is a prime example of this. It would be a techno tune if it wasn't for the quality stagger on the bass kicks and large amounts of sub.

I have heard absolutely no Basic Channel so if anyone has any links I'm always up for a listen.  Two Thumbs
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« Reply #21 on: February 14, 2007, 12:55:22 »

I agree with you on that Pete, I thought Andy Stott was Ok at Cosies, but certainly not overly impressed. Much as I love Under_Score I think Stott is probably better suited to playing big warehouse spaces. Asd to what genre I would put him in I would say, deep breath.... Detroit inspired warehouse techno, with some minimal leanings, ahem..

In all this I forgot to say how good that Peverelist 12", I was blown away when Tom gave me copy. Not only does it have that techno thang going on, the bass line on 'Ertswhile riddim' is the best jungle/d'n'b bass line this side of 1995!  Slayer
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« Reply #22 on: February 14, 2007, 12:58:26 »

I agree with you on that Pete, I thought Andy Stott was Ok at Cosies, but certainly not overly impressed. Much as I love Under_Score I think Stott is probably better suited to playing big warehouse spaces. Asd to what genre I would put him in I would say, deep breath.... Detroit inspired warehouse techno, with some minimal leanings, ahem..


Ahh right  Eek Bad Teeth

Quote
In all this I forgot to say how good that Peverelist 12", I was blown away when Tom gave me copy. Not only does it have that techno thang going on, the bass line on 'Ertswhile riddim' is the best jungle/d'n'b bass line this side of 1995!  Slayer

It's something else.  Slayer


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« Reply #23 on: February 14, 2007, 13:07:58 »

You lot may like this topic on dubstep forum too.....
http://dubstepforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=14915
 Two Thumbs
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« Reply #24 on: February 14, 2007, 13:22:43 »

I have heard absolutely no Basic Channel so if anyone has any links I'm always up for a listen.  Two Thumbs

I can think of a few albums that might whet your whistle and would be a good place to start. Thing is, Basic Channel tends to have a 'Marmite' effect on some peeps, so it might not be your cup of tea at all.

Anyway ...

Basic Channel 'Compiled' (Album with all their tracks on)
Scion 'Arrange And Process Basic Channel Tracks' (Good mix of Basic Channel Stuff)

Also, might be worth checking out...

Rhythm & Sound 'W/ The artists' (all about 'Queen of my Empire'  Love)
Rhythm & Sound 'W/ Paul St Hilare'

I think the latter would be more your cup of tea TBH. I've got all of the above, so if you want a copy let me know. I also have a WICKED Rhythm & Sound live mix with Tikiman pon the mic - I'll upload that in the next few days.
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« Reply #25 on: February 14, 2007, 13:31:33 »


Also, might be worth checking out...

Rhythm & Sound 'W/ The artists' (all about 'Queen of my Empire'  Love)
Rhythm & Sound 'W/ Paul St Hilare'


Beyond Essential!  Slayer  Two Thumbs
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« Reply #26 on: February 14, 2007, 13:39:56 »

I have heard absolutely no Basic Channel so if anyone has any links I'm always up for a listen.  Two Thumbs

I think the latter would be more your cup of tea TBH. I've got all of the above, so if you want a copy let me know. I also have a WICKED Rhythm & Sound live mix with Tikiman pon the mic - I'll upload that in the next few days.


Is this a mix of their own stuff, or them playing their rare 45's with Tikiman deejaying over the top?
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« Reply #27 on: February 14, 2007, 13:58:16 »

I also have a WICKED Rhythm & Sound live mix with Tikiman pon the mic - I'll upload that in the next few days.
Please do.
This stuff to me is what original roots reggae and dub was about; intense atmospheres, organic textures, coma grooves, static, sub and rough edges.
This kind of aesthetic and the experimentalism that ThinKing mentioned which is requires is what got us all hot and bothered about dubstep in the first place.
Rhythm and Sound, recognize game.

BTW mixing the burial mix releases (the label not the dubstep producer) found that they go very well into both actual dub reggae (check jah shaka vinyl releases for wicked source matertial for blending) and also dubstep (early DMZ such as horror show and conference and also burial).
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« Reply #28 on: February 14, 2007, 14:11:48 »

I thoroughly enjoyed the sound design and attention to detail, but again the beats and lack of syncopation just bored me after a while and I fear i am going to be unable to shake this lust for actual break beats and irregular rhythms. Even when DMZ do do their techno inspired beats, the rhythms themselves are geniously invented. Bury the Bwoy is a prime example of this. It would be a techno tune if it wasn't for the quality stagger on the bass kicks and large amounts of sub.

I think toms work is superb for the very reason it sound so unlike anything else. However i have to say that is a brilliantly insightful comment.
I think that sums up very nicely another of the things every one gets wet over dubstep for. The shuffle, stagger and general "skank".
Thats why we refer to it as 'riddim' not 'rhythm'.
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"If you were to drop a maxi priest plate at one nation, it would be the cause of many pull ups, lighters will get drawn, and a horns crew will be called for" - Geiom

"Learn the core cells. Then winge about how clever you are. Then expect someone learning max/msp to winge at you claiming they're cleverer. Then some other dude learning c++ will come and shit over both things. Then some 12 year old who uses some freeware he found comes along and canes out tunes you'll never surpass and then you'll cry" - Souq
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« Reply #29 on: February 14, 2007, 14:21:38 »

anyone interested in this question of intersection should get down to Fabric on the 3rd March... Rhythm & Sound /w/ Tikiman, Kode9 and Luciano in the main room, plus an apparent electro legend in the 2nd room.

as to the topic, i think the whole thing gonna get fucked, i think a lot of idiots with sick cubase skills but little depth are gonna start making brass 4x4 dubstep, just like they did brass halfstep last year.  i started off incredibly excited at the thought of this kind of fusion or creative exchange, and i still think great things are gonna come of it, but inevitably a lot of people who dont really understand what eithers about will make bate standard dance music incorporating lfos AND four to the floor.  but some of them will make great music im sure, and overall im still excited by the possibilities.  i just dont like it when ideas or possibilities get crystalised to the extent that this is though... radio 1 specials, endless forum threads, apparently a forthcoming glossy article... it just means people are gonna jump on it and flop it.  i'd prefer just to see it happen in raves...

as for recommended techno for non-believers, i agree with Puffin Jack 100% on Cadenza, anyone who doubts the rhythmic possibilities within techno need to see about Luciano's percussion (and the school which has developed out of that).  theres a lot of swing in a lot of harder 'minimal' too, in the sense that 4x4 garage had as much swing as a lot of 2step, the shuffling high hats and snapping offbeat snares (underpinned by the steady kicks)... people like Thomas Melchior, Matthew Dear, Alex Under, Adam Beyer (recently), Akufen, (a)pendics shuffle... all very interesting rhythmically, more garage in 'em than 75% (or maybe 77%) of current dubstep IMO

also of interest if talking of shuffle and swing in house/techno are all the fidget house lot...Solid Groove, Switch, Herve, Jesse Rose, Dubsided etc.  Solid Groove and Sinden have made some dubstep-ish tunes too
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« Reply #30 on: February 14, 2007, 14:45:24 »

also of interest if talking of shuffle and swing in house/techno are all the fidget house lot...Solid Groove, Switch, Herve, Jesse Rose, Dubsided etc.  Solid Groove and Sinden have made some dubstep-ish tunes too

totally, dropping this a lot recently with garage, very similar in vibe and energy  Pimp
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« Reply #31 on: February 14, 2007, 14:45:52 »

I thoroughly enjoyed the sound design and attention to detail, but again the beats and lack of syncopation just bored me after a while and I fear i am going to be unable to shake this lust for actual break beats and irregular rhythms. Even when DMZ do do their techno inspired beats, the rhythms themselves are geniously invented. Bury the Bwoy is a prime example of this. It would be a techno tune if it wasn't for the quality stagger on the bass kicks and large amounts of sub.
Thats why we refer to it as 'riddim' not 'rhythm'.

I just can't bring myself to say 'riddim' - I'm white and middle class.

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« Reply #32 on: February 14, 2007, 14:50:50 »

I just can't bring myself to say 'riddim' - I'm white and middle class.
Laugh
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« Reply #33 on: February 14, 2007, 14:52:14 »

i think the whole thing gonna get fucked
 
I can understand your cynicism mate. I was left sorely disappointed by the sheer volume of wankily bland half-step floating around last year as well and it makes sense all the bandwagon-jumpers will be in full effect if this style gets large. Hopefully though, this 'pollination' will yield some amazing tracks. I don't think anyone can doubt the skills that certain techno producers have and if there's a remote possibility that Basic Channel will make something inna dubstep style, I'm all for it.  LIGHTAH!

@ Andy Payback: It's a mix of their own stuff - 'tis awesome though !
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« Reply #34 on: February 14, 2007, 15:04:34 »

I thoroughly enjoyed the sound design and attention to detail, but again the beats and lack of syncopation just bored me after a while and I fear i am going to be unable to shake this lust for actual break beats and irregular rhythms. Even when DMZ do do their techno inspired beats, the rhythms themselves are geniously invented. Bury the Bwoy is a prime example of this. It would be a techno tune if it wasn't for the quality stagger on the bass kicks and large amounts of sub.
Thats why we refer to it as 'riddim' not 'rhythm'.

I just can't bring myself to say 'riddim' - I'm white and middle class.



so am I but it is riddim Andy

That's how it was coined by the people who make the music so to my mind it's repectful to call it such. Another case in point is calling dancehall mc's 'deejays'. I think it's respectful to call them that as the music & culture coined the phrase.

And a riddim track & a rhythm are two seperate entities really. In Grime it's the same .... grime mc's ride riddims (whether it be a grime or dubstep riddim). I think using the term shows an understanding of the approach specific to these musics, as opposed to calling something a 'rhythm' which is a generic term that can be applied to all musics.
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« Reply #35 on: February 14, 2007, 15:26:56 »

I thoroughly enjoyed the sound design and attention to detail, but again the beats and lack of syncopation just bored me after a while and I fear i am going to be unable to shake this lust for actual break beats and irregular rhythms. Even when DMZ do do their techno inspired beats, the rhythms themselves are geniously invented. Bury the Bwoy is a prime example of this. It would be a techno tune if it wasn't for the quality stagger on the bass kicks and large amounts of sub.
Thats why we refer to it as 'riddim' not 'rhythm'.

I just can't bring myself to say 'riddim' - I'm white and middle class.



so am I but it is riddim Andy

That's how it was coined by the people who make the music so to my mind it's repectful to call it such. Another case in point is calling dancehall mc's 'deejays'. I think it's respectful to call them that as the music & culture coined the phrase.

And a riddim track & a rhythm are two seperate entities really. In Grime it's the same .... grime mc's ride riddims (whether it be a grime or dubstep riddim). I think using the term shows an understanding of the approach specific to these musics, as opposed to calling something a 'rhythm' which is a generic term that can be applied to all musics.

I disagree Tim. The phrase 'riddim' is patois for the word 'rhythm', as is saying ''pon' rather than 'on' or 'upon', as is saying 'wha' g'wan?' instead of 'what's going on?'. I don't speak patois so why should I use it to describe specifics within a scene when non-patois works just as well, even if it was created by people that do speak patois. Doesn't mean I'm being disrespectful to the origins of the music.

I don't think the word 'riddim' and 'rhythm' are seperate entities within Reggae itself - they are the same thing. When you apply the word to all music outside Reggae then it becomes non-specific to the scene, as you have pointed out.

I do use the word 'Deejay' to describe Jamaican MC's though, as this is what they are called and has nothing to do with accents or a way of speaking. It is a name coined by the originators of that style.
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« Reply #36 on: February 14, 2007, 15:57:26 »



I do use the word 'Deejay' to describe Jamaican MC's though, as this is what they are called and has nothing to do with accents or a way of speaking. It is a name coined by the originators of that style.

True true, but I still feel the idea or concept of 'riddim' extends beyond merely a slang or patois reference. I still believe it is an entity to itself, as opposed to another way of saying rhythm.

I think there is truth in both our arguements buddy tbh  Wink

Anyways, re minimal & dubstep. It's just the latest trend in the music innit... some of the stuff ive heard so far is wicked, I just hope it doesn't lose the dub vibes.
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« Reply #37 on: February 14, 2007, 16:08:36 »



I do use the word 'Deejay' to describe Jamaican MC's though, as this is what they are called and has nothing to do with accents or a way of speaking. It is a name coined by the originators of that style.

True true, but I still feel the idea or concept of 'riddim' extends beyond merely a slang or patois reference. I still believe it is an entity to itself, as opposed to another way of saying rhythm.

I think there is truth in both our arguements buddy tbh  Wink

Anyways, re minimal & dubstep. It's just the latest trend in the music innit... some of the stuff ive heard so far is wicked, I just hope it doesn't lose the dub vibes.

Yeah, agreed  Cheesy. What you're saying is that the concept has transcended the actual word to become something unique to itself, therefore needing it's own specific reference ('riddim'). Still won't be saying it though  Wink

Re: Dubstep. Not being a expert or even a real fan, but I thought the minimalism of the whole thing was one of the most appealing things about it, like prime late-70's dub. Like I already said earlier, it didn't strike me as odd at all that Puffin was mixing minimal techno with dubstep.
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« Reply #38 on: February 14, 2007, 16:08:48 »

minimal techno

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« Reply #39 on: February 14, 2007, 16:10:44 »


 Huh
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« Reply #40 on: February 14, 2007, 16:20:45 »


 What you're saying is that the concept has transcended the actual word to become something unique to itself, therefore needing it's own specific reference ('riddim'). Still won't be saying it though  Wink


Exactamundo  Two Thumbs


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« Reply #41 on: February 14, 2007, 16:26:06 »


Bit strange really, minimal techno is just an extension of techno?
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« Reply #42 on: February 14, 2007, 16:31:08 »


So was trance though AFAIK !  Laugh
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« Reply #43 on: February 14, 2007, 16:33:20 »


Well there is good trance and bad trance  Smiley
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« Reply #44 on: February 14, 2007, 16:35:15 »


Very true, Xpander FTW  Wink
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« Reply #45 on: February 14, 2007, 16:37:35 »


And there are far worse techno sub-genres than minimal - Schranz for one  Tut Tut
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« Reply #46 on: February 14, 2007, 16:47:16 »

it'll be all about the dubstep-folk crossover next week so don't worry too much.

anyway - djs and selectors - sift thru the shit and buy what u like - thats what its all about. leave the imitation garbage on the shelf - u have the power to decide what sells!!!

ps. dont tell tom he's a dubstep-techno crossover artist to his face or else he'll strangle u whilest shouting -' i'm a junglist! '
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« Reply #47 on: February 14, 2007, 18:18:12 »

interesting thread - a few points to make.

1)lol at people stressing about where the kickdrum lies in the bar. i wish that producers would start from the point of view of creating a dynamic groove instead of this incessant crossreferencing of influences. 4/4 garagey stuff was around before 2 step. broken beat techno (surgeon, female, olga & jozef et al) has been around for yonks as well.

2)im not sure why people are stressing about some upcoming wave of derivative 4/4 dubstep. as pinch has pointed out, dont buy anything unless you really like it. if there arent any good new releases one week, check out something old.

3)minimal as a genre is bunk - . minimal as a description is not - it denotes music which is spacious, and the ethos is about using the freedom to be found in this spacetm. i think that is part of the reason why some people have lumped techno and dubstep together. that and the dub references/downlow vibe to be found in a lot of techno music (too many to list) sometimes bears a relation to the sort of moods found in dubstep.

4)but there is no getting away from the fact that dubstep and techno come from different lineages/cultures. the crowd interaction is different as well - as i see it, techno dancefloors is are about continuity and groove (except when im munted on the decks Bad Teeth) and dubstep floors seem to thrive off drops and pure bass pressure. there will always be people who like one approachand not the other. personally i like some bassline driven muisc but i want the emphasis to change at some point - and then maybe change back. its up to the dj to learn how not to be boring. id like to hear more off beat hihats and 4/4s coming into halfstep rhythms because it completely changes the dynamic - or a polyrhythm breaking into something more regular or vice versa. or just play some fucking disco instead Pimp

5)i first encountered minimalism in dance music in the mid to late 90s listening to 2-step. my love of techno and house came out of this. garage taught me to hear the sounds, shuffle up and generally shake it down. my tastes havent really changed that much. i like my techno to strut and ill play stuff like melchior productions and matthew dear because its skankin. anyone who says that techno doesnt have funk or swing doesnt know techno and has probably just heard electrohouse.

6)basic channel/rhythm&sound are gods in my book. @stealth - i see what you mean about bc not being overtly 'rave'. their music is abstract as fuck and probably a bit too much so for johnny punter. as proper cerebral, exciting, uplifting and groove led music goes though they take some beating. personally im more a fan of r&s and the m-series (a series of productions by maurizio, one half of basic channel for those who dont know) than bc stuff tho - theres more form and more funk in those tracks. m5 is the sexiest low slung 4/4 burner ever. and dont even get me started on vainqueur Love

7)as for basic channel making dubstep - i dont think they approach music in that way. theyve always had more of a roots feel, which doesnt really come across in most of the dubstep that i hear, even most of the the 'dubbier' stuff. listen to queen in my empire by rhythm and sound/jennifer lara and compare that to dutch flowers by skream. the sounds in 'queen...' are warmer and more 'organic' - not really suited to the sharp snares and pummelling basslines that a lot of the dubstep crowd will go for. strange as it sounds, basic channel dont really go for 'basslines' in the standard sense. its more about deep thuds and tones, less about dark melodies in a minor key. feel free to correct me on 'dubby' dubstep. i dont pretend to be an authority on the matter.

8)i fucking love that weird arpeggiated dubsteppy track that pinch has been playing recently. one of the freakiest tracks ive heard this year. id has been refused on several occassions Cry ( but fair play Bad Teeth)

9)the media have been trying to make links between dubstep and techno for ages. i remember some journo getting all excited when darquan cited lfo as an influence.

10)the best musicians/producers/djs will have diverse taste anyway. let them play and produce what they like. the only people who have anything to worry about are the copyists, the tagalongs and the tryhards.

11)@puffin - yeah i think that in their own ways both pinch and andy stott were a bit too big for cosies that night. im so up for a proper warehouse techno party playing something other than spiral gubbins/psytrance.

that's all for now
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« Reply #48 on: February 14, 2007, 18:51:53 »

I've got very bored of minimal due to the quality control going out of the window, five years back it seemed something amazing was being released every week...now it's all abit, well, tired.

Do u not think thats because five years back it was a newish sound?, i know exactly what you mean about quality control going out the window. But there are SO many new tunes by different producers that are fresher than ever, most of the stuff im buying now isnt by the big guns like a few years back. It just takes a bit of time to sift through it all  Undecided
For me the music is sounding better than ever  Two Thumbs
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« Reply #49 on: February 14, 2007, 18:56:52 »

it'll be all about the dubstep-folk crossover next week so don't worry too much.

anyway - djs and selectors - sift thru the shit and buy what u like - thats what its all about. leave the imitation garbage on the shelf - u have the power to decide what sells!!!

ps. dont tell tom he's a dubstep-techno crossover artist to his face or else he'll strangle u whilest shouting -' i'm a junglist! '

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