The downgrading of St. Pauls Carnival

[Wes Gorp]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-17178499

St Pauls Carnival 'may be moved' to different area of Bristol

[Block Party]

Great, more rumour-mongering. Wait for the meeting tonight.

[The Lady Nonny Wrongford]

Ah the BBC, with their finger on the pulse of local current affairs.

[milo]

These stories/rumours, call them what you will, rather beg the following questions:

In whose interests do the current St Paul's Carnival 'organisers' really act?
What exactly is wrong with the traditional format of our carnival?

We've already seen one of Bristol's massive free community festivals crushed.  

[Wes Gorp]

In whose interests do the current St Paul's Carnival 'organisers' really act?

Business, and itll end up fuked like Ashton court festival.

[The Lady Nonny Wrongford]

In whose interests do the current St Paul's Carnival 'organisers' really act?

I would say the primarily St Paul's Community - the residents, not the visitors.

What exactly is wrong with the traditional format of our carnival?

It's massive. Therefore it is difficult to keep safe, numbers are impossible to monitor, and the whole things costs a huge amount of money. Many people feel uncomfortable with the size of the crowds, and it's very easy to lose people - especially children. It grows every year, and the impact of this growth on the community it affects needs to be considered carefully in order for the carnival to survive.

Just because you like a thing, doesn't mean everybody else agrees with you, or that there is no scope for improvement.

[milo]

In whose interests do the current St Paul's Carnival 'organisers' really act?

Business, and itll end up fuked like Ashton court festival.

Only if we allow it to be. It's our carnival on our streets.

[Epico (aka Ferryman)]

Yey! St. Pauls Carnival. It won't change, it's too successful and well loved and the organisers know it.

Roll on July 7th  

[milo]

In whose interests do the current St Paul's Carnival 'organisers' really act?

I would say the primarily St Paul's Community - the residents, not the visitors.

What exactly is wrong with the traditional format of our carnival?

It's massive. Therefore it is difficult to keep safe, numbers are impossible to monitor, and the whole things costs a huge amount of money. Many people feel uncomfortable with the size of the crowds, and it's very easy to lose people - especially children. It grows every year, and the impact of this growth on the community it affects needs to be considered carefully in order for the carnival to survive.

Just because you like a thing, doesn't mean everybody else agrees with you, or that there is no scope for improvement.

It's massive, therefore unsafe?  Isn't that a rather wild non-sequitor?
Why should numbers be 'monitored' ?
Many people feel uncomfortable with the size?  Really?  Who exactly, apart from yourself, feels 'uncomfortable' with large numbers of people enjoying an annual carnival? It's not seen as an issue in Rio, for example.
Ah, a plea for the children. Would that be designed to elicit an emotional response by playing on peoples fear by any chance?

Just because you feel insecure at St Paul's Carnival, it doesn't follow that anybody else does.


  

[The Lady Nonny Wrongford]

In whose interests do the current St Paul's Carnival 'organisers' really act?

I would say the primarily St Paul's Community - the residents, not the visitors.

What exactly is wrong with the traditional format of our carnival?

It's massive. Therefore it is difficult to keep safe, numbers are impossible to monitor, and the whole things costs a huge amount of money. Many people feel uncomfortable with the size of the crowds, and it's very easy to lose people - especially children. It grows every year, and the impact of this growth on the community it affects needs to be considered carefully in order for the carnival to survive.

Just because you like a thing, doesn't mean everybody else agrees with you, or that there is no scope for improvement.

It's massive, therefore unsafe?  Isn't that a rather wild non-sequitor?
Why should numbers be 'monitored' ?
Many people feel uncomfortable with the size?  Really?  Who exactly, apart from yourself, feels 'uncomfortable' with large numbers of people enjoying an annual carnival? It's not seen as an issue in Rio, for example.
Ah, a plea for the children. Would that be designed to elicit an emotional response by playing on peoples fear by any chance?

Just because you feel insecure at St Paul's Carnival, it doesn't follow that anybody else does.

  I feel perfectly safe at Carnival, thanks, however I am empathetic enough to realise that not all people are comfortable in those surroundings.

Whether you like it or not, there are children at Carnival - no tugging on heart strings, just a basic fact.

Monitoring numbers? Did you see what happened at Love Parade. I'm not implying that this is what will happen at Carnival, however, if you organise an event on such a large scale you need to consider possible outcomes. Having more people than can fit in a space can lead to problems... stampede being only one of them... If there is an emergency, it is very difficult to get the emergency services in.

I didn't say it was unsafe, I said that keeping it safe was difficult. The scale of difficulty will obviously depend on how large the event is.

You asked two questions, I gave you rational responses. I am not part of the organisation crew. I have never organised a Carnival, I imagine that the organisers have thought of all these things and more that would never have crossed my mind.

[milo]

[/quote]

  I feel perfectly safe at Carnival, thanks, however I am empathetic enough to realise that not all people are comfortable in those surroundings.

Whether you like it or not, there are children at Carnival - no tugging on heart strings, just a basic fact.

Monitoring numbers? Did you see what happened at Love Parade. I'm not implying that this is what will happen at Carnival, however, if you organise an event on such a large scale you need to consider possible outcomes. Having more people than can fit in a space can lead to problems... stampede being only one of them... If there is an emergency, it is very difficult to get the emergency services in.

I didn't say it was unsafe, I said that keeping it safe was difficult. The scale of difficulty will obviously depend on how large the event is.

You asked two questions, I gave you rational responses. I am not part of the organisation crew. I have never organised a Carnival, I imagine that the organisers have thought of all these things and more that would never have crossed my mind.
[/quote]


I'm sorry, but in my humble opinion your response is far from rational.   
For that reason, it's a relief to know that you are not part of the 'organisation crew'. Thanks.

[FIRE MAN SAM]

notting hill carnival is 100x bigger and has been in the same area for years...

it doesn't have the same vibe as St Pauls Fes because of this, but at least there seems to be a lot less shit psytrance and munter music maybe thats the sheer scale, but i back the post from above about removing all the free party shit lol

[TimesAreTreacherous]

notting hill carnival is 100x bigger and has been in the same area for years...

it doesn't have the same vibe as St Pauls Fes because of this, but at least there seems to be a lot less shit psytrance and munter music maybe thats the sheer scale, but i back the post from above about removing all the free party shit lol

They lock the systems off by 7pm as well.........

The bigger st pauls carnival has got the shitter it's become. What blazey was saying about segregation in certain parts is true and spells the death of carnival, and good! if it fucks off and gets forgotten about for a few years it will start back up again smaller and get back to how it used to be.

I still say limiting the number of whiteys into the area to 500 is the best step! and give each one a 50 question reggae/roots/dub quiz, more then 10 wrong you aint getting in.

[TimesAreTreacherous]

It's massive, therefore unsafe?  Isn't that a rather wild non-sequitor?
Why should numbers be 'monitored' ?
Many people feel uncomfortable with the size?  Really?  Who exactly, apart from yourself, feels 'uncomfortable' with large numbers of people enjoying an annual carnival? It's not seen as an issue in Rio, for example.
Ah, a plea for the children. Would that be designed to elicit an emotional response by playing on peoples fear by any chance?

Just because you feel insecure at St Paul's Carnival, it doesn't follow that anybody else does.   

You would be surprised at the amount of locals who book a holiday out of the area for the weekend, more and more so since its got so big. Aint that nice having a constant stream of pissing vomiting chavs in your garden an outside your gaff.

[tko]

Its not called St Pauls carnival...

http://www.facebook.com/events/235291513214297/

(according to some scrotum from UWE)

[miss baggy]

In whose interests do the current St Paul's Carnival 'organisers' really act?

I would say the primarily St Paul's Community - the residents, not the visitors.

What exactly is wrong with the traditional format of our carnival?

It's massive. Therefore it is difficult to keep safe, numbers are impossible to monitor, and the whole things costs a huge amount of money. Many people feel uncomfortable with the size of the crowds, and it's very easy to lose people - especially children. It grows every year, and the impact of this growth on the community it affects needs to be considered carefully in order for the carnival to survive.

Just because you like a thing, doesn't mean everybody else agrees with you, or that there is no scope for improvement.

It's massive, therefore unsafe?  Isn't that a rather wild non-sequitor?
Why should numbers be 'monitored' ?
Many people feel uncomfortable with the size?  Really?  Who exactly, apart from yourself, feels 'uncomfortable' with large numbers of people enjoying an annual carnival? It's not seen as an issue in Rio, for example.
Ah, a plea for the children. Would that be designed to elicit an emotional response by playing on peoples fear by any chance?

Just because you feel insecure at St Paul's Carnival, it doesn't follow that anybody else does.


 

Er, Have you ever been to Rio Carnival?? I have, its bloomin MENTAL.... Health and Safety doesnt exist, you are more likely to get robbed than to keep your belongings, they still run bus routes through the middle of Bloccos... and if you wanna feel TOTALLY squashed (like you cant breathe) in the middle of the biggest crowd of sweaty (and grabby) people, then its your sort of thing....

However, in Europe, we have much tighter event health and safety legislation... especially after events such as Love Parade and Roskilde going very very wrong.

I personally, love St Pauls Carnival for all that it is already, and suspect that most of the issues the organisers are having are to do with funding rather than anything else.

So if you wanna see St Pauls Survive past this year, I suggest you donate some time/money into helping them raise the funds needed to sustain the festival in future

[Pippin-Drill]

Some twat tried to mug me last year, it was proper sketchy. There were loads of really scuzzy people with prams by the Malcolm X with babes in prams RIGHT by the speakers... I always try to enjoy myself at carnival but the blend of families with kids and off-face munters, crowds and dickwads trying to mug me has put me off in recent times. I remember a few years ago it was lovely, chilling in the sunshine with a cider and some chicken, but last year there wasn't a patch of grass to sit on. All the area around where I live, Rosa Parks and the Star and Garter get so trashed, piss and even shit down the side of the lane, and that's before the litter, which they never seem to clear up properly. Last year me and a neighbour were out there with binliners. I think it needs to be trimmed back a bit to what it used to be, and if that means taking a few sound-systems/stages out, or whatever than so be it. I'm not trying to be a kill-joy, I really used to love it, and still do to see the parade and have a bit of a dance, but can also see why people, especially residents, get  pissed off.

I think I might head to London Pride/Bloc that weekend TBH.

[1984]

(according to some scrotum from UWE)

[#]

word on the street is limited to 15 soundsystems. seems fair   bring on carnival  

incorrect 

[A(P):M]

Anyone actually go to the meeting? Can someone confirm what happened, heard it was a bit crazy and even a fight at the end.
Twitter seems to be saying all shut down by 6. Can't see how they're gonna mange that without more police than a old firm derby, how's that gonna save cash?

[#]

Anyone actually go to the meeting? Can someone confirm what happened, heard it was a bit crazy and even a fight at the end.
Twitter seems to be saying all shut down by 6. Can't see how they're gonna mange that without more police than a old firm derby, how's that gonna save cash?

lol it started at 6.45?!

[A(P):M]

Anyone actually go to the meeting? Can someone confirm what happened, heard it was a bit crazy and even a fight at the end.
Twitter seems to be saying all shut down by 6. Can't see how they're gonna mange that without more police than a old firm derby, how's that gonna save cash?

lol it started at 6.45?!

I meant the carnival.
Obviously I dont know, just what's on twitter. Missdutty and marti burgess, amongst others.
Hope it's wrong.

[Whagwan]

If I've come back from Aus to find no Bloc weekend and no Carnival I'm gonna kick right off.

[Typowriter]

I went for about an hour or so to hear what was being said.
Quite the drama to be honest.
The main thing is that sound systems will be limited to an early finish and venues in the area will be expected to "take the carnival inside."
A huge turnout, quite animated etc.

The Carnival, as a business, are in a very difficult position, I don't envy them.
Hope all works out well.

[billy disney]

I was at the meeting earlier, sad to report the rumours are true. There won't be any soundsytems or a stage thus year, and, it seems, a scaled down procession and kids area. The meeting got pretty heated yes, no fights though, just some manly pushing and shoving. The reason given is that there is a financial shortfall and it has to be scaled down. The reason people are so angry (there were 100s of residents at the meeting- all extremely pissed off) is because no consultation was done before the decision was made, if people were told 6 months ago, they could have tried to raise funds. It's scandalous this decision has been taken without local feedback. The day festival will finish at 6. There are going to be some evening events in local clubs/pubs. I tried to find out if this was a permanent change, but couldn't get a straight answer.  

[Bill Price]

75 posts and he still hasn't corrected the spelling on the thread title?

[Whagwan]

Well maybe I will stay in London for Bloc after all...

[B'Tol]

I was at the meeting earlier, sad to report the rumours are true. There won't be any soundsytems or a stage thus year, and, it seems, a scaled down procession and kids area. The meeting got pretty heated yes, no fights though, just some manly pushing and shoving. The reason given is that there is a financial shortfall and it has to be scaled down. The reason people are so angry (there were 100s of residents at the meeting- all extremely pissed off) is because no consultation was done before the decision was made, if people were told 6 months ago, they could have tried to raise funds. It's scandalous this decision has been taken without local feedback. The day festival will finish at 6. There are going to be some evening events in local clubs/pubs. I tried to find out if this was a permanent change, but couldn't get a straight answer.  

Who said this?! The council?!

Because I've heard they are simply restricting it to 14 stages/sound systems.

Sounds like a horrendous amount of fork clattering and hearsay and not much communication with the folks who actually make the decisions!

[billy disney]

The head of the carnival organising committee confirmed there will be zero outdoor soundsystems at carnival this year. Doesnt get much more decisive than that really.

[x]

Its not really a fucking carnival without outdoor sound systems and late night partying. Its a shitty parade with jerk chicken.

edit: And it heaps on the irony of me saying to the mrs when she was in town on carnival for the first time ever "fuck it lets stay in and sleep off the hangover. There's always next year"

[#]

massive poo bells 

[Piss & Vinegar]

My favourite day of the year in Bristol 

[A(P):M]

Gutted is not the word.
Suspect this might kill it forever.
My prediction:
1)People will still go down anyway, Problems arise from lack of facilities and prep for similar number of people as in previous years,
2)some sound systems will try their luck,
3) trouble will ensue when the police shut them down (certainly more trouble than in previous years anyway, despite the cut down size mainly due to the hoards of pissed up people wondering round with nothing to do till night time, all pissed off that the party has been shut down),
4) they wont make more money this year having pissed off a lot of people, no on will trust current organisers to put it right next year,
5) police and council will demand big increase in costs for future policing and security with tighter licensing conditions after trouble this year,
6) event becomes unviable, certainly for medium term, maybe reborn in smaller form in future years once the fuss has died down.

Hope to god I'm wrong.

[A(P):M]

My favourite day of the year in Bristol 

On average over the last 5 years, my favourite day of the year anywhere.

[1984]

Its not really a fucking carnival without outdoor sound systems and late night partying. Its a shitty parade with jerk chicken.

Really poor attitude there noodley. Very depressing and very British. And for you, uncharacteristically naive grasp of not what just Carnival is about but specifically what the St Paul's carnival is about.

I reckon we're on for a beltter this year. There WILL be some sound systems, people skaning, taking it easy and some nice friendly St Pauls vibes. Also it's going to be the most mind bendingly nice summer this year.

Although it will be different this year will be the best carnival for years.

[Piss & Vinegar]

What's gonna happen when 90,000 people turn up this year and there's no music or anything going on? gonna be a bit embarrassing.

Theme this year is independance though perhaps everyone should just independantly set up there sound systems as normal really can't seee the police trying to shut them down in the middle of carnival.

[A(P):M]

There WILL be some sound systems, people skaning, taking it easy and some nice friendly St Pauls vibes. Also it's going to be the most mind bendingly nice summer this year.

Although it will be different this year will be the best carnival for years.

Hope you're right. Can't quite see it but I really hope you're right.

[#]

What's gonna happen when 90,000 people turn up this year and there's no music or anything going on? gonna be a bit embarrassing.

Theme this year is independance though perhaps everyone should just independantly set up there sound systems as normal really can't seee the police trying to shut them down in the middle of carnival.

its fairly easily done by the council, we have run sound systems a few times both with and without permission. first time the police turned up with a riot van etc but as there were so many people it was not worth their well (seen unsafe for them to close it) we did another time without and the council came over and if we didnt shut down would have informed a minimum of £2500 spot fine. we got permission after that.

really gutting news.

however i cant see it stopping soundsystems from happening... be it illegal and the above happening!

[Paddy Jinnah]

If they got rid of all the raver, dnb, dubstep, garage and shit mc'ing and kept it to dub, reggae and roots ska, got rid of that stupid BBC Introducing stage and scrapped the fair ground then it would be a sure fire way of getting rid of the masses of mess heads and turn it back into a proper carnival rather than an extension of a shit night out at Motion attended by people who think a free party is a guest list at lizard lounge.

Good point, well made.

 

 

I agree. Usually spend my time avoiding the stages etc and hit William St and stuff.
I wana hear Dub, Roots & reggae @ Carnival, not noisy fuck-wit shit! (Time and a place).
If there weren't all the big names on big stages attracting all the dickheads then surly the numbers would be brought way, way down from 90,000. Then I can't see why people couldn't run some sound systems without the police kicking off. 

[Whagwan]

Yeah, cause the police really don't like turning up in riot gear and causing a ruck around that area, do they?

Sadly, this is what I see happening:

Gutted is not the word.
Suspect this might kill it forever.
My prediction:
1)People will still go down anyway, Problems arise from lack of facilities and prep for similar number of people as in previous years,
2)some sound systems will try their luck,
3) trouble will ensue when the police shut them down (certainly more trouble than in previous years anyway, despite the cut down size mainly due to the hoards of pissed up people wondering round with nothing to do till night time, all pissed off that the party has been shut down),
4) they wont make more money this year having pissed off a lot of people, no on will trust current organisers to put it right next year,
5) police and council will demand big increase in costs for future policing and security with tighter licensing conditions after trouble this year,
6) event becomes unviable, certainly for medium term, maybe reborn in smaller form in future years once the fuss has died down.

Hope to god I'm wrong.

[Stuart Wilkinson]

Unfortunately, support for the Carnival is shocking.
I helped manage a team of bucketeers (if that's not what they are called then they are now) last year to raise money for the carnival and for Brisfest.
We followed the procession and then went into Portland square.
There was a surprisingly high number of people that questioned what we were raising money for and looked angry when you explained it was to ensure the Carnival happened again next year. It's a real shame that the bulk of attendees have no knowledge of the work going on behind the scenes and do not value the work that goes into all of the amazing events we have in this City.

It really is simple. Good events cost money.
Pay for a ticket when you have to or give a donation if you want them to carry on and to be successful. Support what we have.
Without charitable donations by text message and by loose change the carnival cannot and will not continue as we know it and love it.

if people were collecting for bristfest at carnival then perhaps carnival should collect at bristfest  

its briSfest firstly

and Brisfest volunteer group collected for Carnival, as well as being involved with stokes croft street fest we spread our passion across bristol to bring the vibes!

Yes we know Brisfest come first

[HOBO]

 

[Epico (aka Ferryman)]

Fucking gutted. Best day of the Bristol calender by a fucking mile. The local authorities' attitude over the last 3 years has been shit with regards to the music scene in Bristol, and this really feels like the final nail in the coffin.

I think it's time to think about moving. This city is starting to feel a pretty distant cry from the one I fell in love with 4 years ago 

:sadbuttrue:

[#]

Fucking gutted. Best day of the Bristol calender by a fucking mile. The local authorities' attitude over the last 3 years has been shit with regards to the music scene in Bristol, and this really feels like the final nail in the coffin.

I think it's time to think about moving. This city is starting to feel a pretty distant cry from the one I fell in love with 4 years ago 

:sadbuttrue:

i cant agree with this statement. BCC's placemaking initiative has been a fully positive thing for the music and arts and bristol's music scene is thriving more then ever some prime examples of this are see no evil (which i believe is happening again) and the new love saves the day in castle park. the decision with st pauls is due to them knowing the situtation and not informing the community and letting them do anything about it... before anyone bites on this about the fact it's free and people didnt donate... thats because they haven't made a big enough effort to get people donating and reminding them about it, at the end of the day that is their job to do any attitude otherwise is the reason they didnt make any money. an example to raise more awareness could be a condition of a soundsystem that it must have the number to text in somewhere (banners - these can be me made professional at a low cost or even had made... get the children involded making vibrant colourful ones?!), and also getting them to announce how to every 30mins - hour. and having the people collecting buckets that actually look official and know more information about what they are collecting for other then jus saying "so it happens again".

the main things effecting the "music scene" have been health n safety and legal requirements which have been more enforced in other cities for a long time, bristol has just had it good for a long time.

there is loads on in the city this year, and this obviously is going down with out a fight.

[P.O.D.G.E]

Fucking gutted. Best day of the Bristol calender by a fucking mile. The local authorities' attitude over the last 3 years has been shit with regards to the music scene in Bristol, and this really feels like the final nail in the coffin.

I think it's time to think about moving. This city is starting to feel a pretty distant cry from the one I fell in love with 4 years ago 

:sadbuttrue:

i cant agree with this statement. BCC's placemaking initiative has been a fully positive thing for the music and arts and bristol's music scene is thriving more then ever some prime examples of this are see no evil (which i believe is happening again) and the new love saves the day in castle park. the decision with st pauls is due to them knowing the situtation and not informing the community and letting them do anything about it... before anyone bites on this about the fact it's free and people didnt donate... thats because they haven't made a big enough effort to get people donating and reminding them about it, at the end of the day that is their job to do any attitude otherwise is the reason they didnt make any money. an example to raise more awareness could be a condition of a soundsystem that it must have the number to text in somewhere (banners - these can be me made professional at a low cost or even had made... get the children involded making vibrant colourful ones?!), and also getting them to announce how to every 30mins - hour. and having the people collecting buckets that actually look official and know more information about what they are collecting for other then jus saying "so it happens again".

the main things effecting the "music scene" have been health n safety and legal requirements which have been more enforced in other cities for a long time, bristol has just had it good for a long time.

there is loads on in the city this year, and this obviously is going down with out a fight.

I'd agree. BCC over the last year have allowed shit loads to happen that wouldn't normally. Alfresco Disco in castle park and See No Evil are just two prime examples.

As much as I love carnival this cut back is due to them not raising enough money last year, not BCC pulling the plug. The carnival organisers tried something new with the text donation and it failed. If they had stuck to the bucket donations then it would probably be business as usual this year.

[Epico (aka Ferryman)]

Fucking gutted. Best day of the Bristol calender by a fucking mile. The local authorities' attitude over the last 3 years has been shit with regards to the music scene in Bristol, and this really feels like the final nail in the coffin.

I think it's time to think about moving. This city is starting to feel a pretty distant cry from the one I fell in love with 4 years ago 

:sadbuttrue:

i cant agree with this statement. BCC's placemaking initiative has been a fully positive thing for the music and arts and bristol's music scene is thriving more then ever some prime examples of this are see no evil (which i believe is happening again) and the new love saves the day in castle park. the decision with st pauls is due to them knowing the situtation and not informing the community and letting them do anything about it... before anyone bites on this about the fact it's free and people didnt donate... thats because they haven't made a big enough effort to get people donating and reminding them about it, at the end of the day that is their job to do any attitude otherwise is the reason they didnt make any money. an example to raise more awareness could be a condition of a soundsystem that it must have the number to text in somewhere (banners - these can be me made professional at a low cost or even had made... get the children involded making vibrant colourful ones?!), and also getting them to announce how to every 30mins - hour. and having the people collecting buckets that actually look official and know more information about what they are collecting for other then jus saying "so it happens again".

the main things effecting the "music scene" have been health n safety and legal requirements which have been more enforced in other cities for a long time, bristol has just had it good for a long time.

there is loads on in the city this year, and this obviously is going down with out a fight.

Yeah perhaps. It just feels like it's all been a bit of a covert plan and thus, it's easy to understand why people feel cheated.

I think I might buy a ticket for Love Saves the Day next week, to cheer myself up.

[milo]

There is a reason for the crushing of large, independent, non-corporate community events and it has nothing to do with money or health & safety.

[Thunderball]

Aliens?

[B'Tol]

So the organisers have downsized?!

IMO there will now be a huge fund raising effort from the people who are up in arms about it, and it'll go off this summer.

Assuming all of these people actually care.

[bloke]

yes, seems like depending on text donations when phones don't work on the day was a bit of a schoolboy error.