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12 Riot vans n glos road... (Cheltenham Rd Riot)

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« Reply #200 on: April 23, 2011, 14:16:36 »

Dear people who are saying the police started it,

When you live 3 doors down from a place that was going to get burned down you tend to be quite glad there was a riot instead of a massive fire.

Cheers

Dan
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« Reply #201 on: April 23, 2011, 14:25:14 »

http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/laurie-penny/2011/04/stokes-croft-police-tesco

"The situation escalated quickly. Hundreds turned out in support of the squatters, who are well liked by the community...."

Pretty amateur piece of journalism, but I'm interested to hear peoples opinions on the above - Do you think they are genuinely well liked by the actual local community (i.e. people who have spent more than a few years living in the area)?

Personally I've been out of Bristol for too long to gauge this particular case. But in general, I'd say squatters that are considerate towards their surroundings and artistically/creatively active in their endeavors can do wonders for breathing life into a community/area. And they clearly play a big part in making Stoke's Croft a special place.

But I also think that the local community have suffered a fair bit over the years at the hands of inconsiderate squatters, who don't generally do much else apart from exacerbate the area's existing issues with drugs and anti-social behavior by generally being selfish, and perpetually K'd up, cunts.
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« Reply #202 on: April 23, 2011, 14:39:50 »

Nobody fund UK Uncut, I know them myself, it's all the same people who run/ran Climate Camp, the only "funding" they get is from twitter callouts to top up their media phone...

Suggesting that the GOP might be funding both the anti-tax small state tea party movement - and a pro-taxation big government anti-capitalist Uncut movement, started in the UK, is utterly, utterly  Doh!

Pretty embarrassingly laughable for a social sciences student, wouldn't you think you might want to watch the news every six months or so if you're studying social sciences? Particularly someone who has the black panthers fist as his avatar! Laugh
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« Reply #203 on: April 23, 2011, 14:41:43 »

Dear people who are saying the police started it,

When you live 3 doors down from a place that was going to get burned down you tend to be quite glad there was a riot instead of a massive fire.

Cheers

Dan

So tSo there's a risk of a potential incident inside a building, is it really neccessary to send out 100-200 coppers and a fuckoff spotlight on the building for hours on end, and to block off the road 50-60 metres in either direction?

Surely an armed response unit or maybe two dozen coppers raiding the building would have been sufficient? If they really thought petrol bombs were going to be thrown wouldn't they have evacuated the nearby houses?

If the police thought there was a serious risk of petrol-bomb throwing (it now looks like petrol bombs were siezed) an armed response unit would have to be called out, surely? They wouldn't just send in a flammable copper to try and take them away would they?

The fact that there was no armed response unit dealing with the actual petrol bomb situation begs the question, why then, if they didn't think there was a serious risk, did they decide to give it the big one with the police presence?

If there was a risk of petrol bombs being thrown, why wasn't the pipe and slippers evacuated?

Why were the welsh coppers on the scene first if this was a "quick response to an immediate threat"?

If it was about there being a possible attack on tesco, why the fuck did they let everyone attack tesco?

The police tactics make no sense in this situation, any police who've been to stokes croft in the last 3 months must have known that putting up a line of riot-ready police right across the ashley road junction is totally asking for trouble....

It's all very fishy and conveniently timed, and in my opinion has a lot to do with Ken Clarke's new legislation to ban squatting, which has everything to do with clamping down on political protest in a last ditch effort to save the coalition.

When the legislation starts to go through, talk of the petrol-bomb wielding rioting undesirables in Stokes Croft who smashed up an innocent Tesco will dominate the debate in Parliament.

"Mr Speaker, we must stop these people, they occupied a Tesco before it was due to open, and then a building opposite, were due to throw petrol bombs at it, and then when the police tried to negotiate a solution they started a riot"
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« Reply #204 on: April 23, 2011, 14:46:16 »

Nobody fund UK Uncut, I know them myself, it's all the same people who run/ran Climate Camp, the only "funding" they get is from twitter callouts to top up their media phone...

Suggesting that the GOP might be funding both the anti-tax small state tea party movement - and a pro-taxation big government anti-capitalist Uncut movement, started in the UK, is utterly, utterly  Doh!

Pretty embarrassingly laughable for a social sciences student, wouldn't you think you might want to watch the news every six months or so if you're studying social sciences? Particularly someone who has the black panthers fist as his avatar! Laugh

Thank you.
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« Reply #205 on: April 23, 2011, 14:49:36 »

Nobody fund UK Uncut, I know them myself, it's all the same people who run/ran Climate Camp, the only "funding" they get is from twitter callouts to top up their media phone...

Suggesting that the GOP might be funding both the anti-tax small state tea party movement - and a pro-taxation big government anti-capitalist Uncut movement, started in the UK, is utterly, utterly  Doh!

Pretty embarrassingly laughable for a social sciences student, wouldn't you think you might want to watch the news every six months or so if you're studying social sciences? Particularly someone who has the black panthers fist as his avatar! Laugh

 Two Thumbs  fear the change
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« Reply #206 on: April 23, 2011, 15:00:09 »

Nobody fund UK Uncut, I know them myself, it's all the same people who run/ran Climate Camp, the only "funding" they get is from twitter callouts to top up their media phone...

Suggesting that the GOP might be funding both the anti-tax small state tea party movement - and a pro-taxation big government anti-capitalist Uncut movement, started in the UK, is utterly, utterly  Doh!

Pretty embarrassingly laughable for a social sciences student, wouldn't you think you might want to watch the news every six months or so if you're studying social sciences? Particularly someone who has the black panthers fist as his avatar! Laugh

 Two Thumbs  fear the change


eh Huh

Sorry for the attack, I just find it a little bit strange that you are rockin the symbol of solidarity used by lefty activists worldwide and don't seem to have the slightest clue about what's going on with the most prominent lefty activist movement in the UK right now.
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« Reply #207 on: April 23, 2011, 15:13:14 »

Nobody fund UK Uncut, I know them myself, it's all the same people who run/ran Climate Camp, the only "funding" they get is from twitter callouts to top up their media phone...

Suggesting that the GOP might be funding both the anti-tax small state tea party movement - and a pro-taxation big government anti-capitalist Uncut movement, started in the UK, is utterly, utterly  Doh!

Pretty embarrassingly laughable for a social sciences student, wouldn't you think you might want to watch the news every six months or so if you're studying social sciences? Particularly someone who has the black panthers fist as his avatar! Laugh
Script Script
I was about to write much the same
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« Reply #208 on: April 23, 2011, 16:11:47 »

Nobody fund UK Uncut, I know them myself, it's all the same people who run/ran Climate Camp, the only "funding" they get is from twitter callouts to top up their media phone...

Suggesting that the GOP might be funding both the anti-tax small state tea party movement - and a pro-taxation big government anti-capitalist Uncut movement, started in the UK, is utterly, utterly  Doh!

Pretty embarrassingly laughable for a social sciences student, wouldn't you think you might want to watch the news every six months or so if you're studying social sciences? Particularly someone who has the black panthers fist as his avatar! Laugh

 Two Thumbs  fear the change


eh Huh

Sorry for the attack, I just find it a little bit strange that you are rockin the symbol of solidarity used by lefty activists worldwide and don't seem to have the slightest clue about what's going on with the most prominent lefty activist movement in the UK right now.


Ark at you lot.. why on earth would you assume what i know and dont know?.. And actually i'm fully aware of the rise of right wing politics both here and in the US , specially the link between the black movements of the 50' and 60's and political religious ideology (gop created in the late 50's to bring church ans state closer) - initially 'used' to as a tool to bring people into movement. But unfortunately the rise in racial equality has equally powerful religious group/s that mirror it. As for 'lefty bla bla bla' , i put it to you that- its you who does not  fully understand the world you live in, or even why why inhabit this planet at all. Forget the lefties , you should be looking out for the right, they will attack , then you need to see what the middles are doing and why they are doing it,  like all these ignorant and confused working/middle class cnuts who jump on the environment issues, you got to ask why?  it has a name, its called the 'third way'.

@who ever was banging on about my pic ..Yes my pic... What of it? did you bother to look into where the 'symbol' comes from and why it was used? or did you 'assume' they invented it?


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« Reply #209 on: April 23, 2011, 16:19:02 »


So there's a risk of a potential incident inside a building, is it really neccessary to send out 100-200 coppers and a fuckoff spotlight on the building for hours on end, and to block off the road 50-60 metres in either direction?

Surely an armed response unit or maybe two dozen coppers raiding the building would have been sufficient? If they really thought petrol bombs were going to be thrown wouldn't they have evacuated the nearby houses?

I was just at a meeting with the police, local council, traders and residents. According the police they initially provided two units, consisting of 6 vans and about 50 officers plus the helicopter to deal with the potential petrol bomb threat. Having had a meeting and done a risk assessment, they thought they would need this many as they expected resistance in entering 141 Cheltenham Rd, a four storey building.


If the police thought there was a serious risk of petrol-bomb throwing (it now looks like petrol bombs were siezed) an armed response unit would have to be called out, surely? They wouldn't just send in a flammable copper to try and take them away would they?

The fact that there was no armed response unit dealing with the actual petrol bomb situation begs the question, why then, if they didn't think there was a serious risk, did they decide to give it the big one with the police presence?

If there was a risk of petrol bombs being thrown, why wasn't the pipe and slippers evacuated?

Police at the meeting said they couldn't answer why the pubs weren't evacuated - but will find out and feed back to bar owners.

Why were the welsh coppers on the scene first if this was a "quick response to an immediate threat"?

Because the policeman who witnessed the alleged petrol bomb(s) saw this at 4.30pm. The police then gathered further intelligence and assigned what units they could get at short notice. This took around 4 hours and the units were dispatched at 8.30pm.

If it was about there being a possible attack on tesco, why the fuck did they let everyone attack tesco?

The police apparently deployed various tactics, including charging and attempting to disperse crowds, and also withdrawing. They said withdrawal often works and helps calm the situation - however in this situation it rapidly became clear the withdrawal from Cheltenham Road
wasnt working, so they returned to disperse these rioters.

any police who've been to stokes croft in the last 3 months must have known that putting up a line of riot-ready police right across the ashley road junction is totally asking for trouble....


That may be the case, but if the police are supposed to act apolitically then they have to treat a terrorist threat to Tesco the same as they would do a terrorist threat to any other business.

Whether the threat was real will probably stay debatable, but having spoken to an officer who personally witnessed a guy with a petrol bomb, I don't go with the conspiracy theorists personally. Also, if people are going to paint massive murals saying 'Burn Tesco' then I don't have a lot of time with people whinging that they are being treated like terrorists...

The police seemed to take on board widespread criticism at the meeting that they did not try to inform any members of the public about what was going on, which allowed rumour-mongering among all the hangers on, thus triggering animosity.
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« Reply #210 on: April 23, 2011, 16:20:51 »

Um... According to the Telegraph's version of events, the Tesco store actually was 'firebombed'  Huh

Their sub-header clearly says: "Eight police officers were injured and Tesco store petrol bombed after a riot broke out in Bristol overnight."



http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/8468246/Eight-police-hurt-during-Bristol-riot.html



Also the Star are saying "About 160 officers were attacked with stones dug out of the street and glass" "Fires were started in the street in Stokes Croft, Bristol, and the mob threw petrol bombs at the supermarket, causing thousands of pounds of damage."

http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/view/187520/Petrol-bombs-fly-in-Bristol-Tesco-riot-hell/

 Doh!
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« Reply #211 on: April 23, 2011, 16:32:20 »

Seriously. I'm giving up reading the internet.  Smashed
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« Reply #212 on: April 23, 2011, 16:48:55 »

Seriously. I'm giving up reading the internet.  Smashed

You've finally read one of your posts then
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« Reply #213 on: April 23, 2011, 16:50:26 »

Too much of the anti-authoritarian stuff here is knee-jerk. The assumption that central government decided to craft a riot in Stoke's Croft to justify a new policy is about as far-fetched as you can go without sounding completely unrealistic. Its literally on the borderline of fucking crackpot. Don't get me wrong the police are brutal antagonistic fuckers and it only gets worse with the tories in power, because the police know they can get away with much harsher tactics. But in this particular case I think its reprehensible of internet people and the left wing media to place so much blame for "starting a riot" on the police.... The riot was started by people attacking the police. If everyone had just stood and watched quietly there'd have been no riot. Rioters started the riot and its daft, bordering on insulting, to suggest otherwise.
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« Reply #214 on: April 23, 2011, 16:55:06 »



Ark at you lot.. why on earth would you assume what i know and dont know?.. And actually i'm fully aware of the rise of right wing politics both here and in the US , specially the link between the black movements of the 50' and 60's and political religious ideology (gop created in the late 50's to bring church ans state closer) - initially 'used' to as a tool to bring people into movement. But unfortunately the rise in racial equality has equally powerful religious group/s that mirror it. As for 'lefty bla bla bla' , i put it to you that- its you who does not  fully understand the world you live in, or even why why inhabit this planet at all. Forget the lefties , you should be looking out for the right, they will attack , then you need to see what the middles are doing and why they are doing it,  like all these ignorant and confused working/middle class cnuts who jump on the environment issues, you got to ask why?  it has a name, its called the 'third way'.

@who ever was banging on about my pic ..Yes my pic... What of it? did you bother to look into where the 'symbol' comes from and why it was used? or did you 'assume' they invented it?

[/quote]

What do political religious ideology and right wing politics have to do with UK Uncut, other than being their opponents?

I wouldn't claim to fully understand the world we live in, to say so would be ridiculous, but to insinuate that UK Uncut might be funded by the same people as the Tea Party is more ridiculous, from my personal experience and from and outsiders perspective by just looking at what UK Uncut are, which is anything but third way / centrist.

The raised fist was first used by communists and has come to symbolise left wing activism, so one would expect if you're rockin it as your avatar you might be up to date with left-wing activism and at least to know why suggesting that the GOP of all people might fund an unfunded left wing activist organisation is silly.
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« Reply #215 on: April 23, 2011, 16:55:47 »

Too much of the anti-authoritarian stuff here is knee-jerk. The assumption that central government decided to craft a riot in Stoke's Croft to justify a new policy is about as far-fetched as you can go without sounding completely unrealistic. Its literally on the borderline of fucking crackpot. Don't get me wrong the police are brutal antagonistic fuckers and it only gets worse with the tories in power, because the police know they can get away with much harsher tactics. But in this particular case I think its reprehensible of internet people and the left wing media to place so much blame for "starting a riot" on the police.... The riot was started by people attacking the police. If everyone had just stood and watched quietly there'd have been no riot. Rioters started the riot and its daft, bordering on insulting, to suggest otherwise.

sounds like you are well and truly stuck in the 'everyday'.. i kind of feel sorry for you (but then i know fuk all)
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« Reply #216 on: April 23, 2011, 17:01:27 »



Ark at you lot.. why on earth would you assume what i know and dont know?.. And actually i'm fully aware of the rise of right wing politics both here and in the US , specially the link between the black movements of the 50' and 60's and political religious ideology (gop created in the late 50's to bring church ans state closer) - initially 'used' to as a tool to bring people into movement. But unfortunately the rise in racial equality has equally powerful religious group/s that mirror it. As for 'lefty bla bla bla' , i put it to you that- its you who does not  fully understand the world you live in, or even why why inhabit this planet at all. Forget the lefties , you should be looking out for the right, they will attack , then you need to see what the middles are doing and why they are doing it,  like all these ignorant and confused working/middle class cnuts who jump on the environment issues, you got to ask why?  it has a name, its called the 'third way'.

@who ever was banging on about my pic ..Yes my pic... What of it? did you bother to look into where the 'symbol' comes from and why it was used? or did you 'assume' they invented it?


What do political religious ideology and right wing politics have to do with UK Uncut, other than being their opponents?

I wouldn't claim to fully understand the world we live in, to say so would be ridiculous, but to insinuate that UK Uncut might be funded by the same people as the Tea Party is more ridiculous, from my personal experience and from and outsiders perspective by just looking at what UK Uncut are, which is anything but third way / centrist.

The raised fist was first used by communists and has come to symbolise left wing activism, so one would expect if you're rockin it as your avatar you might be up to date with left-wing activism and at least to know why suggesting that the GOP of all people might fund an unfunded left wing activist organisation is silly.
[/quote]


They dont fund people directly they fund activism and ideas that lead to social change or to halt that change.. consumer organisations and the like are the ones who can pay you (as a business or group) to mediate material through the everyday language, media and advertising et al, this is what the middle ignorants jump on as bona fide info. want some links to government/state/corporate sponsored activism? they will pay you to confuse people, its clever stuff playing both sides of the fence.
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« Reply #217 on: April 23, 2011, 17:01:33 »

Too much of the anti-authoritarian stuff here is knee-jerk. The assumption that central government decided to craft a riot in Stoke's Croft to justify a new policy is about as far-fetched as you can go without sounding completely unrealistic. Its literally on the borderline of fucking crackpot. Don't get me wrong the police are brutal antagonistic fuckers and it only gets worse with the tories in power, because the police know they can get away with much harsher tactics. But in this particular case I think its reprehensible of internet people and the left wing media to place so much blame for "starting a riot" on the police.... The riot was started by people attacking the police. If everyone had just stood and watched quietly there'd have been no riot. Rioters started the riot and its daft, bordering on insulting, to suggest otherwise.

Of course it was the Police's fault...

If you set up a big line of riot police in Stokes Croft on the Ashley Rd / Stokes Croft junction, who won't / can't tell anybody why they are there, what else is going to happen!?

If you then draw attention to the area by flying a helicopter with a spotlight over Stokes Croft for several hours, people will congregate, exacerbating the situation.

Unnecessary police tactics in a hotspot area, with no communication to the public and a number of police on public violent incidents started the riot. You can't blame a dog for biting someone if you constantly keep kicking it....



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« Reply #218 on: April 23, 2011, 17:03:19 »

I'm a bit baffled as to why the feds didn't do the bust at like 4am, when there wouldn't have been a load of the general public milling about, getting pissed cos they don't have to go to work tomorrow.  Huh

Incredibly provocative, it has to be said. If they meant it as some kind of visible deterrent/we're getting tough to safeguard Tescos then it went horribly wrong.

A lot of questions should be asked of Avon & Somerset Police. They would have known by doing this on such a busy drinking night that it had the potential to get VERY messy/out of control.

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« Reply #219 on: April 23, 2011, 17:06:49 »



Ark at you lot.. why on earth would you assume what i know and dont know?.. And actually i'm fully aware of the rise of right wing politics both here and in the US , specially the link between the black movements of the 50' and 60's and political religious ideology (gop created in the late 50's to bring church ans state closer) - initially 'used' to as a tool to bring people into movement. But unfortunately the rise in racial equality has equally powerful religious group/s that mirror it. As for 'lefty bla bla bla' , i put it to you that- its you who does not  fully understand the world you live in, or even why why inhabit this planet at all. Forget the lefties , you should be looking out for the right, they will attack , then you need to see what the middles are doing and why they are doing it,  like all these ignorant and confused working/middle class cnuts who jump on the environment issues, you got to ask why?  it has a name, its called the 'third way'.

@who ever was banging on about my pic ..Yes my pic... What of it? did you bother to look into where the 'symbol' comes from and why it was used? or did you 'assume' they invented it?


What do political religious ideology and right wing politics have to do with UK Uncut, other than being their opponents?

I wouldn't claim to fully understand the world we live in, to say so would be ridiculous, but to insinuate that UK Uncut might be funded by the same people as the Tea Party is more ridiculous, from my personal experience and from and outsiders perspective by just looking at what UK Uncut are, which is anything but third way / centrist.

The raised fist was first used by communists and has come to symbolise left wing activism, so one would expect if you're rockin it as your avatar you might be up to date with left-wing activism and at least to know why suggesting that the GOP of all people might fund an unfunded left wing activist organisation is silly.
[/i]

They dont fund people directly they fund activism and ideas that lead to social change or to halt that change.. consumer organisations and the like are the ones who can pay you (as a business or group) to mediate material through the everyday language, media and advertising et al, this is what the middle ignorants jump on as bona fide info. want some links to government/state/corporate sponsored activism? they will pay you to confuse people, its clever stuff playing both sides of the fence.
[/quote]

There are plenty of examples of state sponsored activism, UK Uncut is not one of them.

The government have nothing to gain from doing so, the people at the heart of it are all life-long activists, I know several of them. They aren't working for the Republicans  Laugh

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« Reply #220 on: April 23, 2011, 17:09:03 »

I'm a bit baffled as to why the feds didn't do the bust at like 4am, when there wouldn't have been a load of the general public milling about, getting pissed cos they don't have to go to work tomorrow.  Huh

Incredibly provocative, it has to be said. If they meant it as some kind of visible deterrent/we're getting tough to safeguard Tescos then it went horribly wrong.

A lot of questions should be asked of Avon & Somerset Police. They would have known by doing this on such a busy drinking night that it had the potential to get VERY messy/out of control.



there are links..

the cars and vans that are left unatended to be attacked?

the common police boot attached to black block feet?

the unions jumping on every change (even if that change beans betterment),  including the police union.

labour saying b4 they left office "we will bring the country to its knees",

the letters sent out by government to the labour sponsored activists who led the london riots?Huh? warning them they were blatant in breaking the laws of the house???

there are links, and many more.. just go to look
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« Reply #221 on: April 23, 2011, 17:14:08 »



Ark at you lot.. why on earth would you assume what i know and dont know?.. And actually i'm fully aware of the rise of right wing politics both here and in the US , specially the link between the black movements of the 50' and 60's and political religious ideology (gop created in the late 50's to bring church ans state closer) - initially 'used' to as a tool to bring people into movement. But unfortunately the rise in racial equality has equally powerful religious group/s that mirror it. As for 'lefty bla bla bla' , i put it to you that- its you who does not  fully understand the world you live in, or even why why inhabit this planet at all. Forget the lefties , you should be looking out for the right, they will attack , then you need to see what the middles are doing and why they are doing it,  like all these ignorant and confused working/middle class cnuts who jump on the environment issues, you got to ask why?  it has a name, its called the 'third way'.

@who ever was banging on about my pic ..Yes my pic... What of it? did you bother to look into where the 'symbol' comes from and why it was used? or did you 'assume' they invented it?


What do political religious ideology and right wing politics have to do with UK Uncut, other than being their opponents?

I wouldn't claim to fully understand the world we live in, to say so would be ridiculous, but to insinuate that UK Uncut might be funded by the same people as the Tea Party is more ridiculous, from my personal experience and from and outsiders perspective by just looking at what UK Uncut are, which is anything but third way / centrist.

The raised fist was first used by communists and has come to symbolise left wing activism, so one would expect if you're rockin it as your avatar you might be up to date with left-wing activism and at least to know why suggesting that the GOP of all people might fund an unfunded left wing activist organisation is silly.
[/i]

They dont fund people directly they fund activism and ideas that lead to social change or to halt that change.. consumer organisations and the like are the ones who can pay you (as a business or group) to mediate material through the everyday language, media and advertising et al, this is what the middle ignorants jump on as bona fide info. want some links to government/state/corporate sponsored activism? they will pay you to confuse people, its clever stuff playing both sides of the fence.

There are plenty of examples of state sponsored activism, UK Uncut is not one of them.

The government have nothing to gain from doing so, the people at the heart of it are all life-long activists, I know several of them. They aren't working for the Republicans  Laugh


[/quote]


your posts are becoming drab and mundane, your sucked into the everyday like dan. u really need to look beyond what your eyeballs allow.

i dont doubt that you know many ignorants, why else would they join these groups?

 who said they were working for republicans, this is the point of the third way. the middles are so confused they join up to these groups willingly, they even create groups in the blind knowledge they are doing the right thing,politically 'nudged' from the outset.
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« Reply #222 on: April 23, 2011, 17:18:53 »


So there's a risk of a potential incident inside a building, is it really neccessary to send out 100-200 coppers and a fuckoff spotlight on the building for hours on end, and to block off the road 50-60 metres in either direction?

Surely an armed response unit or maybe two dozen coppers raiding the building would have been sufficient? If they really thought petrol bombs were going to be thrown wouldn't they have evacuated the nearby houses?

I was just at a meeting with the police, local council, traders and residents. According the police they initially provided two units, consisting of 6 vans and about 50 officers plus the helicopter to deal with the potential petrol bomb threat. Having had a meeting and done a risk assessment, they thought they would need this many as they expected resistance in entering 141 Cheltenham Rd, a four storey building.


If the police thought there was a serious risk of petrol-bomb throwing (it now looks like petrol bombs were siezed) an armed response unit would have to be called out, surely? They wouldn't just send in a flammable copper to try and take them away would they?

The fact that there was no armed response unit dealing with the actual petrol bomb situation begs the question, why then, if they didn't think there was a serious risk, did they decide to give it the big one with the police presence?

If there was a risk of petrol bombs being thrown, why wasn't the pipe and slippers evacuated?

Police at the meeting said they couldn't answer why the pubs weren't evacuated - but will find out and feed back to bar owners.

Why were the welsh coppers on the scene first if this was a "quick response to an immediate threat"?

Because the policeman who witnessed the alleged petrol bomb(s) saw this at 4.30pm. The police then gathered further intelligence and assigned what units they could get at short notice. This took around 4 hours and the units were dispatched at 8.30pm.

If it was about there being a possible attack on tesco, why the fuck did they let everyone attack tesco?

The police apparently deployed various tactics, including charging and attempting to disperse crowds, and also withdrawing. They said withdrawal often works and helps calm the situation - however in this situation it rapidly became clear the withdrawal from Cheltenham Road
wasnt working, so they returned to disperse these rioters.

any police who've been to stokes croft in the last 3 months must have known that putting up a line of riot-ready police right across the ashley road junction is totally asking for trouble....


That may be the case, but if the police are supposed to act apolitically then they have to treat a terrorist threat to Tesco the same as they would do a terrorist threat to any other business.

Whether the threat was real will probably stay debatable, but having spoken to an officer who personally witnessed a guy with a petrol bomb, I don't go with the conspiracy theorists personally. Also, if people are going to paint massive murals saying 'Burn Tesco' then I don't have a lot of time with people whinging that they are being treated like terrorists...

The police seemed to take on board widespread criticism at the meeting that they did not try to inform any members of the public about what was going on, which allowed rumour-mongering among all the hangers on, thus triggering animosity.

I was just at a meeting with the police, local council, traders and residents. According the police they initially provided two units, consisting of 6 vans and about 50 officers plus the helicopter to deal with the potential petrol bomb threat. Having had a meeting and done a risk assessment, they thought they would need this many as they expected resistance in entering 141 Cheltenham Rd, a four storey building.

50 Police to enter a building with four people in it? So where did the other hundred or so show up from to block off the road 50 metres in all directions, and why do so?

Police at the meeting said they couldn't answer why the pubs weren't evacuated - but will find out and feed back to bar owners.


Fair enough? I guess the people in the pubs and all the local residents who by all accounts got beaten if they tried to step outside were less of a concern than the Tesco, not as if they'd go out and have a look at why the whole street was empty or anything is it?

The police apparently deployed various tactics, including charging and attempting to disperse crowds, and also withdrawing. They said withdrawal often works and helps calm the situation - however in this situation it rapidly became clear the withdrawal from Cheltenham Road
wasnt working, so they returned to disperse these rioters.


So why did they leave Tesco undefended, when the whole point of the operation was to defend Tesco from a terrorist attack?

If a few people with petrol bombs in a building opposite Tesco was considered a "terrorist threat" requiring 12 coppers per person in the building, which as you said they'd had four hours to survey before going in, why weren't the people in the pubs and living in the area evacuated?



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« Reply #223 on: April 23, 2011, 17:24:58 »

Is


Ark at you lot.. why on earth would you assume what i know and dont know?.. And actually i'm fully aware of the rise of right wing politics both here and in the US , specially the link between the black movements of the 50' and 60's and political religious ideology (gop created in the late 50's to bring church ans state closer) - initially 'used' to as a tool to bring people into movement. But unfortunately the rise in racial equality has equally powerful religious group/s that mirror it. As for 'lefty bla bla bla' , i put it to you that- its you who does not  fully understand the world you live in, or even why why inhabit this planet at all. Forget the lefties , you should be looking out for the right, they will attack , then you need to see what the middles are doing and why they are doing it,  like all these ignorant and confused working/middle class cnuts who jump on the environment issues, you got to ask why?  it has a name, its called the 'third way'.

@who ever was banging on about my pic ..Yes my pic... What of it? did you bother to look into where the 'symbol' comes from and why it was used? or did you 'assume' they invented it?


What do political religious ideology and right wing politics have to do with UK Uncut, other than being their opponents?

I wouldn't claim to fully understand the world we live in, to say so would be ridiculous, but to insinuate that UK Uncut might be funded by the same people as the Tea Party is more ridiculous, from my personal experience and from and outsiders perspective by just looking at what UK Uncut are, which is anything but third way / centrist.

The raised fist was first used by communists and has come to symbolise left wing activism, so one would expect if you're rockin it as your avatar you might be up to date with left-wing activism and at least to know why suggesting that the GOP of all people might fund an unfunded left wing activist organisation is silly.
[/i]

They dont fund people directly they fund activism and ideas that lead to social change or to halt that change.. consumer organisations and the like are the ones who can pay you (as a business or group) to mediate material through the everyday language, media and advertising et al, this is what the middle ignorants jump on as bona fide info. want some links to government/state/corporate sponsored activism? they will pay you to confuse people, its clever stuff playing both sides of the fence.

There are plenty of examples of state sponsored activism, UK Uncut is not one of them.

The government have nothing to gain from doing so, the people at the heart of it are all life-long activists, I know several of them. They aren't working for the Republicans  Laugh




your posts are becoming drab and mundane, your sucked into the everyday like dan. u really need to look beyond what your eyeballs allow.

i dont doubt that you know many ignorants, why else would they join these groups?

 who said they were working for republicans, this is the point of the third way. the middles are so confused they join up to these groups willingly, they even create groups in the blind knowledge they are doing the right thing,politically 'nudged' from the outset.
[/quote]
The Gop is another term for the republican party. The tea in tea party stands for 'taxed enough already'. Why would the republican party fund a UK political movement that complains about corporate tax evasion. The notion is entirely ridiculous.
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« Reply #224 on: April 23, 2011, 17:26:45 »

Umm, you did?

Remember a few posts back when you said "Uk-uncut.... USuncut...... lol at that shit, might want to check who funds these cnuts"

And then TimeStretch said...

"Who funds those cunts then?"

And then you said...

"well... they also fund the tea baggers and many other far right groups in america and the edl and the wdl here (there has also been mention of bnp too), it starts with G ends with P and have been in league with the labour party since the early 90's, they use church orgs and groups to push through their ideas and side step taxation in the progress."

Would be fair to assume you meant the Grand Old Party?

UK Uncut have nothing to do with republicans or right wing politics, as I said before they are all long time left wing and green activists, and are fighting spending cuts and Tory politics. They are explicitly left wing, so why would they want to take funding from the republicans? All this is besides the point, they are unfunded anyway.

If you're going to "look beyond the every day" and take a sanctimonious know-it-all attitude when talking about the "ignorant middle" members of the biggest left wing direct action movement around today, it would help to keep a level head.


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« Reply #225 on: April 23, 2011, 17:28:59 »

what else is going to happen!?...You can't blame a dog for biting someone if you constantly keep kicking it....

People should not be stupid, violent fucking idiots. It is neither justified nor justifiable. I am totally against that on both sides of the fence; the police certainly should not (and certainly do currently) physically assault innocent bystanders in a thoughtless, frenzied manner and it should not be tolerated. This much is true. But equally violent and unnecessary behaviour on the part of a minority of the public is equally as unacceptable, foolish and wrong. I can not believe that anyone would try to justify, even defend, the actions of those people. The police felt it necessary to close a section of the road. Because of the limitations of blocking off the road to vehicular access they could not close a smaller section of it. It was closed between the nearest junctions. They also felt it necessary to prevent public access. I was there and officers (not in riot gear) were happily directing people to the alternate route down Bath Buildings/Picton Street. It was hardly an inconvenience to anyone passing through. It was inconvenient if you lived within the cordon, like me. I couldn't go home ffs. But overall it was the smallest closure possible. As was said in the meeting today the initial raft of officers was 50 in 6 vans. Which is reasonable for a 4 storey building which is dimly lit and has windows you can't see in through. There are rational justifications for the plans of the police, whilst certainly not for all of their individual actions.

It is the rational thing to do to tolerate an operation like that peacefully. Could the police have predicted that it would have antagonised a small minority of violent thugs? Yes, they could have. Should they have been expected to expose themselves and the public to greater risk by keeping the road open and going in in too few numbers to succeed cleanly, just to avoid provoking a fucking moronic element of scumbags in the general public? No they should fucking not. That is who is to blame for the rioting and the criminal damage. The moronic fucking scumbags who did it. And anybody who sympathises with those moronic fucking scumbags is a cunt.
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« Reply #226 on: April 23, 2011, 17:39:55 »

Nobody fund UK Uncut, I know them myself, it's all the same people who run/ran Climate Camp, the only "funding" they get is from twitter callouts to top up their media phone...

Suggesting that the GOP might be funding both the anti-tax small state tea party movement - and a pro-taxation big government anti-capitalist Uncut movement, started in the UK, is utterly, utterly  Doh!

Pretty embarrassingly laughable for a social sciences student, wouldn't you think you might want to watch the news every six months or so if you're studying social sciences? Particularly someone who has the black panthers fist as his avatar! Laugh

 Two Thumbs  fear the change


eh Huh

Sorry for the attack, I just find it a little bit strange that you are rockin the symbol of solidarity used by lefty activists worldwide and don't seem to have the slightest clue about what's going on with the most prominent lefty activist movement in the UK right now.


Ark at you lot.. why on earth would you assume what i know and dont know?.. And actually i'm fully aware of the rise of right wing politics both here and in the US , specially the link between the black movements of the 50' and 60's and political religious ideology (gop created in the late 50's to bring church ans state closer) - initially 'used' to as a tool to bring people into movement. But unfortunately the rise in racial equality has equally powerful religious group/s that mirror it. As for 'lefty bla bla bla' , i put it to you that- its you who does not  fully understand the world you live in, or even why why inhabit this planet at all. Forget the lefties , you should be looking out for the right, they will attack , then you need to see what the middles are doing and why they are doing it,  like all these ignorant and confused working/middle class cnuts who jump on the environment issues, you got to ask why?  it has a name, its called the 'third way'.

@who ever was banging on about my pic ..Yes my pic... What of it? did you bother to look into where the 'symbol' comes from and why it was used? or did you 'assume' they invented it?





i hope your essays are more coherent tthan your posts on here  Laugh
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« Reply #227 on: April 23, 2011, 17:41:03 »

Umm, you did?

Remember a few posts back when you said "Uk-uncut.... USuncut...... lol at that shit, might want to check who funds these cnuts"

And then TimeStretch said...

"Who funds those cunts then?"

And then you said...

"well... they also fund the tea baggers and many other far right groups in america and the edl and the wdl here (there has also been mention of bnp too), it starts with G ends with P and have been in league with the labour party since the early 90's, they use church orgs and groups to push through their ideas and side step taxation in the progress."

Would be fair to assume you meant the Grand Old Party?

UK Uncut have nothing to do with republicans or right wing politics, as I said before they are all long time left wing and green activists, and are fighting spending cuts and Tory politics. They are explicitly left wing, so why would they want to take funding from the republicans? All this is besides the point, they are unfunded anyway.

If you're going to "look beyond the every day" and take a sanctimonious know-it-all attitude when talking about the "ignorant middle" members of the biggest left wing direct action movement around today, it would help to keep a level head.




And your posts prove my points... GREEN ACTIVISM
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« Reply #228 on: April 23, 2011, 17:41:29 »

what else is going to happen!?...You can't blame a dog for biting someone if you constantly keep kicking it....

People should not be stupid, violent fucking idiots. It is neither justified nor justifiable. I am totally against that on both sides of the fence; the police certainly should not (and certainly do currently) physically assault innocent bystanders in a thoughtless, frenzied manner and it should not be tolerated. This much is true. But equally violent and unnecessary behaviour on the part of a minority of the public is equally as unacceptable, foolish and wrong. I can not believe that anyone would try to justify, even defend, the actions of those people. The police felt it necessary to close a section of the road. Because of the limitations of blocking off the road to vehicular access they could not close a smaller section of it. It was closed between the nearest junctions. They also felt it necessary to prevent public access. I was there and officers (not in riot gear) were happily directing people to the alternate route down Bath Buildings/Picton Street. It was hardly an inconvenience to anyone passing through. It was inconvenient if you lived within the cordon, like me. I couldn't go home ffs. But overall it was the smallest closure possible. As was said in the meeting today the initial raft of officers was 50 in 6 vans. Which is reasonable for a 4 storey building which is dimly lit and has windows you can't see in through. There are rational justifications for the plans of the police, whilst certainly not for all of their individual actions.

It is the rational thing to do to tolerate an operation like that peacefully. Could the police have predicted that it would have antagonised a small minority of violent thugs? Yes, they could have. Should they have been expected to expose themselves and the public to greater risk by keeping the road open and going in in too few numbers to succeed cleanly, just to avoid provoking a fucking moronic element of scumbags in the general public? No they should fucking not. That is who is to blame for the rioting and the criminal damage. The moronic fucking scumbags who did it. And anybody who sympathises with those moronic fucking scumbags is a cunt.

People aren't rational, crowds are even less rational. The Police catalysed a "small minority of thugs" into a big mob of protestors by being needlessly heavy handed. I was there as well and all it would have taken would be to send about ten police to go and arrest or calm down three or four people who were starting to throw stuff, as it happened they got all their riot gear out, the public still unaware as to why it was all happening to begin with. This then provoked the crowd even more, so they charged them, this is when it turned into a riot, and was entirely because of the actions of the police, the public were just reacting to a situation brought about by the police, who have a monopoly on violence and are therefore the antagonists by default.

They started the situation, brought the crowd there, did nothing to communicate with the crowd who were becoming increasingly angry, and reacted by grabbing the riot gear as soon as some people started shouting.
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« Reply #229 on: April 23, 2011, 17:43:20 »

Umm, you did?

Remember a few posts back when you said "Uk-uncut.... USuncut...... lol at that shit, might want to check who funds these cnuts"

And then TimeStretch said...

"Who funds those cunts then?"

And then you said...

"well... they also fund the tea baggers and many other far right groups in america and the edl and the wdl here (there has also been mention of bnp too), it starts with G ends with P and have been in league with the labour party since the early 90's, they use church orgs and groups to push through their ideas and side step taxation in the progress."

Would be fair to assume you meant the Grand Old Party?

UK Uncut have nothing to do with republicans or right wing politics, as I said before they are all long time left wing and green activists, and are fighting spending cuts and Tory politics. They are explicitly left wing, so why would they want to take funding from the republicans? All this is besides the point, they are unfunded anyway.

If you're going to "look beyond the every day" and take a sanctimonious know-it-all attitude when talking about the "ignorant middle" members of the biggest left wing direct action movement around today, it would help to keep a level head.




And your posts prove my points... GREEN ACTIVISM

I'm still totally at a loss as to what your point is, at first it seemed that when you said the GOP fund UK Uncut you might have meant that the GOP fund UK Uncut, I tried to dispel this and since then I've had no idea what you're getting at.
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« Reply #230 on: April 23, 2011, 17:45:07 »

Seriously. I'm giving up reading the internet.  Smashed

You've finally read one of your posts then
I only said I'd give up reading it though.
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« Reply #231 on: April 23, 2011, 17:58:14 »

Umm, you did?

Remember a few posts back when you said "Uk-uncut.... USuncut...... lol at that shit, might want to check who funds these cnuts"

And then TimeStretch said...

"Who funds those cunts then?"

And then you said...

"well... they also fund the tea baggers and many other far right groups in america and the edl and the wdl here (there has also been mention of bnp too), it starts with G ends with P and have been in league with the labour party since the early 90's, they use church orgs and groups to push through their ideas and side step taxation in the progress."

Would be fair to assume you meant the Grand Old Party?

UK Uncut have nothing to do with republicans or right wing politics, as I said before they are all long time left wing and green activists, and are fighting spending cuts and Tory politics. They are explicitly left wing, so why would they want to take funding from the republicans? All this is besides the point, they are unfunded anyway.

If you're going to "look beyond the every day" and take a sanctimonious know-it-all attitude when talking about the "ignorant middle" members of the biggest left wing direct action movement around today, it would help to keep a level head.




And your posts prove my points... GREEN ACTIVISM

I'm still totally at a loss as to what your point is, at first it seemed that when you said the GOP fund UK Uncut you might have meant that the GOP fund UK Uncut, I tried to dispel this and since then I've had no idea what you're getting at.

i think they call that lay
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« Reply #232 on: April 23, 2011, 17:59:39 »


So there's a risk of a potential incident inside a building, is it really neccessary to send out 100-200 coppers and a fuckoff spotlight on the building for hours on end, and to block off the road 50-60 metres in either direction?







50 Police to enter a building with four people in it? So where did the other hundred or so show up from to block off the road 50 metres in all directions, and why do so?

[

I'm not claiming the police handled this well. I think they handled the whole situation pretty badly.

They sent around 50 police at the start of the evening. I was there at 9.30 and this sounds about right to me. I guess they thought it was necessary to close the road temporarily. I don't think 50 people to take action on a four storey building with an unknown number of inhabitants at that particular point sounds all that crazy to me. The police suggested that since it was eviction date, they expected from previous experience to meet with resistance at the squat, based on past experience. They also commented that they had had a fairly good and constructive relationship with the inhabitants of the squat for the past year and most of the recent peaceful anti-Tesco protestors, and that until Thursday their assessment was of low-scale protests not posing a threat to property or anyone's personal safety. This however changed with the intelligence they claim to have gathered on Thursday. Also the person who was now been charged re: petrol bombs was not someone familiar to them from the previous year.

And the council guys added that they would not try and do an eviction in an evening on bank holiday weekend. Since the inhabitants appeared to agree they would leave without force, the council wanted to allow this to happen without imposing warrants and involving police, so as not to unnecessarily inflame tensions.

Large numbers of police reinforcements were brought in later on after missiles and concrete blocks were thrown at the police, who were outnumbered by the crowd that had gathered. Video footage supports this. I'm not denying police unneccesarily charged crowds at various points.

So why did they leave Tesco undefended, when the whole point of the operation was to defend Tesco from a terrorist attack?

I guess because the police having been active in the area a few days previous did not see the threat from violent protestors as very high in general. Apart from this one guy, or maybe several guys with petrol bombs. They had already dealt with this threat earlier in the evening. They were now dealing with a separate civil disturbance.

If a few people with petrol bombs in a building opposite Tesco was considered a "terrorist threat" requiring 12 coppers per person in the building, which as you said they'd had four hours to survey before going in, why weren't the people in the pubs and living in the area evacuated?

Maybe the police analysis was that petrol bombers would attack Tesco's property, its staff and the police, but probably not local residents. Maybe...

As far as squatter/ police relations go, generally speaking, seems to me levels of mistrust on both sides are pretty inevitable. Nice to see them talking it out at this meeting anyway.

I would agree violence probably would not have occured if the police hadn't acted in this way, don't think this makes it the police's fault though. imho of course.
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« Reply #233 on: April 23, 2011, 18:06:21 »

I was there as well and all it would have taken would be to send about ten police to go and arrest or calm down three or four people who were starting to throw stuff

What makes you so sure it still wouldn't have escalated? I'd hate to be the non-riot-geared copper who drew the short straw on going into a crowd, outnumbered 10 to 1 or higher, if it proceeded to turn into a "big mob of protesters" whilst I was in there.... What time are you talking about anyway? Because they actually reopened the road at around 11:30pm and it was all rather uneventful riot-wise. A little spot of police brutality which is always just lovely. The news interviewed the guy who got batoned. It made me angry and I'm sure it did everyone else there too. But regardless of that the road was opened again without incident. By all accounts criminal damage began to occur without there even being a police presence, somewhere around 1-2am. The police had to come back to get it under control. It'd be nice if we could work out some sort of timeline, cos I only saw events from the kwik fit end, which was probably more peaceful/smaller crowd than the Ashley Road end....
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« Reply #234 on: April 23, 2011, 18:07:51 »

i think they call that lay

Obfuscating your point deliberately, why?

If you have one to make, say it, you've been very circular so far. If nobody here has the slightest clue what you're on about, the error is in your communication, not our understanding.

Either you're still claiming that the GOP fund UK Uncut, you're adding green activism into the mix as well, or you're just being pretentious and not wanting to put whatever point you think you have out there for some reason.
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« Reply #235 on: April 23, 2011, 18:13:12 »

i'll have half a gram of whatever Wes G is having thanks barman
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« Reply #236 on: April 23, 2011, 18:16:32 »

I was there as well and all it would have taken would be to send about ten police to go and arrest or calm down three or four people who were starting to throw stuff

What makes you so sure it still wouldn't have escalated? I'd hate to be the non-riot-geared copper who drew the short straw on going into a crowd, outnumbered 10 to 1 or higher, if it proceeded to turn into a "big mob of protesters" whilst I was in there.... What time are you talking about anyway? Because they actually reopened the road at around 11:30pm and it was all rather uneventful riot-wise. A little spot of police brutality which is always just lovely. The news interviewed the guy who got batoned. It made me angry and I'm sure it did everyone else there too. But regardless of that the road was opened again without incident. By all accounts criminal damage began to occur without there even being a police presence, somewhere around 1-2am. The police had to come back to get it under control. It'd be nice if we could work out some sort of timeline, cos I only saw events from the kwik fit end, which was probably more peaceful/smaller crowd than the Ashley Road end....

Nothing does, but it's certainly a better first instance than to just get out the riot kit when nobody has actually started kicking off yet. Important to stress that there had been absolutely no communication with the crowd, nobody had the slightest idea why the police were there, which is antagonistic in itself.

I'm not sure of the timeline, but a few people on the ashley road end who I've seen hanging around Stokes Croft in general (won't get into it in too much detail but they weren't activists or protestors, were probably well known to the police and may have had quite a few drinks by that point) started tipping over bins and forming a barricade. If there had simply been a policeman with a megaphone who told everyone to remain calm, why they were there (for public safety because of an incident up the road, rather than everyone thinking it was a squat eviction or left to their imaginations) and that they'd reopen the road shortly, everything would have had a much better chance of being fine.

Realistically, the police shouldn't have been there in a line like that for more than about ten minutes, certainly not without an effort to communicate the reasoning. How long does it really take to go into a building and secure it, probably less than 2 minutes, beyond that there's no excuse for keeping the road closed.


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« Reply #237 on: April 23, 2011, 18:40:00 »

i'll have half a gram of whatever Wes G is having thanks barman

brave man
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« Reply #238 on: April 23, 2011, 18:43:18 »

Me thinks matey boy Wes has been trolling the whole time. amirite?
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« Reply #239 on: April 23, 2011, 18:57:47 »

Me thinks matey boy Wes has been trolling the whole time. amirite?

nope he has just conceded to a more solid argument. not the troll 'get out of jail free card' this time.
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« Reply #240 on: April 23, 2011, 20:15:16 »

Not been following this as have been out in the sunshine - has anyone mentioned Hitler yet?

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« Reply #241 on: April 23, 2011, 20:38:07 »

Not been following this as have been out in the sunshine - has anyone mentioned Hitler yet?


Kind of. Wes G swung wild accusations that the UK Uncut was in cahoots with the EDL, WDL and other right wing movements in States.

Anyway, I'm sure he had some good points jumbled up in amongst all that. A bit like this guy:

http://www.youtube.com/v/3cLxQ4B23_g
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« Reply #242 on: April 23, 2011, 20:44:49 »

Nice.

I read the bit about how the Stokes Croft riot was architected by a shadowy cabal of Whitehall based puppet masters in a last gasp attempt to save the coalition. Proper lulz.

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« Reply #243 on: April 23, 2011, 20:48:58 »

context

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-13175677
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« Reply #244 on: April 23, 2011, 20:59:48 »

Nice.
I read the bit about how the Stokes Croft riot was architected by a shadowy cabal of Whitehall based puppet masters in a last gasp attempt to save the coalition. Proper lulz.

Wouldn't be that far out to be suspicious of something political, minus the motive and perpetrators you named!

I'm sure a show of force, a line of riot police, not telling the officers why they are there and some mild skirmishes/unrest that always result from doing that might have justified a higher police presence, more funding, or helped win some tory / stokes croft redevelopment hearts and minds.

Feasible that a show of force was the intention and it got out of hand, and that the decision to make such a show was political, not from whitehall but locally or within the police force.

I'm not saying that I think this, but it's not completely unreasonable to think that were political motives behind the odd initial decisions the police seemed to take, certainly seems like disproportionately drastic action to take, maybe that was the intention but it backfired?

The ridiculously bad tactics the police used if they had any intention of avoiding some confrontation beggar belief.

For "well-rehearsed" tactics they totally fucked up, leaving vehicles open to being smashed up, their riot gear unprotected in open vehicles, and not defending Tesco is stupid and pretty weird considering that this was the whole point of the operation.

It's either totally incompetent and out of touch policing or some kind of show of force that went horribly wrong.
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« Reply #245 on: April 23, 2011, 21:28:48 »

Not read the whole thread but I can safely say that all the cobble's on Picton St are accounted for, someones chatting shit...
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« Reply #246 on: April 23, 2011, 22:00:04 »

someones chatting shit...
Surprise surfuckingprise.
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« Reply #247 on: April 23, 2011, 22:28:03 »

Not been following this as have been out in the sunshine - has anyone mentioned Hitler yet?


Kind of. Wes G swung wild accusations that the UK Uncut was in cahoots with the EDL, WDL and other right wing movements in States.

Anyway, I'm sure he had some good points jumbled up in amongst all that. A bit like this guy:

http://www.youtube.com/v/3cLxQ4B23_g

cnut.
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« Reply #248 on: April 23, 2011, 22:31:33 »

because im a troll.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OMAIsqvTh7g

whats solid in a world of jelly?

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« Reply #249 on: April 23, 2011, 23:00:24 »

Certainly not your brain...
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