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Problem with delays dropping out in Logic

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Dekoy (Dwindle)
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« on: February 16, 2010, 22:01:54 »

Just wondering if anyone's had similar issues ever and if they've managed to overcome them.

Basically quite often when I have a delay on a channel in Logic, when the sound's triggered the delay will work as it should it first, then after a second or so the delay will cut out completely and then kick in around a second later as if nothing had happened (ie. with the tale of the delay kicking back in).

It doesn't happen the whole time but it does regularly. Especially by the time I'm doing a mix down so there's quite a lot of inputs added. The same thing happens on Stereo Delay and Delay Designer.

Any ideas?
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« Reply #1 on: February 16, 2010, 22:19:12 »

If you bounce the track (not in real time) and listen to the resulting file does it have the same problem? If not then its probably just struggling to render the delay in real-time and skipping a sample block or two until it catches up. Try increasing the buffer size in your soundcard settings.
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« Reply #2 on: February 17, 2010, 15:39:49 »

Yeah I've tried bouncing and then just adding the file back in as an Audio track. Problem's still there though. This is the main problem because when I bounce the whole track, you can still hear the delays dropping out. I'll try increasing the soundcard bubber size. Cheers.
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« Reply #3 on: February 17, 2010, 20:45:31 »

Are you maxing your CPU out? try freezing the track.
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« Reply #4 on: February 18, 2010, 09:53:43 »

Most likely, yes. I'l try that. Thanks.
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« Reply #5 on: February 18, 2010, 09:57:46 »

The thing I said is the same as the thing he said so won't work. Have you used much automation? Check all the automation lines and make sure there aren't any problems in there? Is it always the same point in the track where the delay drops out?
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« Reply #6 on: February 18, 2010, 10:07:33 »

The thing I said is the same as the thing he said so won't work. Have you used much automation? Check all the automation lines and make sure there aren't any problems in there? Is it always the same point in the track where the delay drops out?
Is it possible it could be causing CPU issues as he's bouncing though? It's probably worth a try. Computers don't always follow logic (no pun intended).
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« Reply #7 on: February 18, 2010, 10:09:43 »

The thing I said is the same as the thing he said so won't work. Have you used much automation? Check all the automation lines and make sure there aren't any problems in there? Is it always the same point in the track where the delay drops out?
Is it possible it could be causing CPU issues as he's bouncing though? It's probably worth a try. Computers don't always follow logic (no pun intended).

lol. Anyway potentially it is, but generally if the CPU is hitting max during realtime play it'll actually wait for the CPU to finish each block (i.e. go slower than real-time to make it easier on the CPU), and take longer than the play length to render the track.
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« Reply #8 on: February 18, 2010, 11:08:09 »

I'm afraid I got a bit lost with with talk of real time and blocks. Like I say I've tried bouncing but haven't tried freezing the track so will give this a go.

The problem does usually present itself when there's a lot of automation going on. This automation isn't necessarily on the problem channels though.

What do you mean exactly when you say check that there's no "problems" with the automation lines? Do you mean like right angle nodes? And yes, it's usually the same point where the dropouts occur.
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« Reply #9 on: February 18, 2010, 11:12:29 »

Any automation info really. I'm not sure how its drawn in Logic, but in Cubase its all nodes joined by lines. Either way its worth checking that no automation is accidentally going on with the delay plugin. Also save a copy of the file to somewhere else and then delete everything but the delay track and see if the problem stays. It could just be some sort of conflict with another plugin or a corrupted Logic save file.
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« Reply #10 on: February 18, 2010, 13:18:21 »

Have you checked for copious amounts of dust?

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Seriously though, sounds like a potential buffer issue to me. How much RAM you running too?
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« Reply #11 on: February 18, 2010, 21:36:42 »

No dust this time I think. You know I'm not good at these technical questions but this is my spec if that helps. Been really busy and haven't tried any of these suggestions yet. Will do over the weekend though and thanks for the suggestions.  

  Processor Name:   Intel Core 2 Duo
  Processor Speed:   2.66 GHz
  Number Of Processors:   1
  Total Number Of Cores:   2
  L2 Cache:   6 MB
  Memory:   2 GB
  Bus Speed:   1.07 GHz

Is there a way to check how much a Logic project is using.
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« Reply #12 on: February 18, 2010, 22:09:01 »



Is there a way to check how much a Logic project is using.


What's the little bar at the bottom of the Arrange window saying? I don't know how precise it is in reality, but if it's going apeshit then that's a good starting point.
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« Reply #13 on: February 18, 2010, 23:00:37 »

id put my money on soundcard buffer probs.

i have to increase the size when my tunes get complex (in sonar on the pc)
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« Reply #14 on: March 09, 2010, 10:41:09 »

I'm pretty new to Logic but it could feasibly be volume automation. I've accidentally had the same problem, say if I fade the end of a sound, I thought the delay would just carry on, but it cuts out in the same way you describe.
It's annoying coz I can't figure out how to remove the 'pop' from a chop while maintaining the delay properly. Any help on this would be gurtly lush  Two Thumbs
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« Reply #15 on: March 09, 2010, 11:55:26 »

I'm pretty new to Logic but it could feasibly be volume automation. I've accidentally had the same problem, say if I fade the end of a sound, I thought the delay would just carry on, but it cuts out in the same way you describe.
It's annoying coz I can't figure out how to remove the 'pop' from a chop while maintaining the delay properly. Any help on this would be gurtly lush  Two Thumbs

I don't use logic, but I would either use a cross fade or a fade on the audio clip rather than using the fader. I'm sure Logic has this option, but may have a different name.
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« Reply #16 on: March 09, 2010, 11:56:21 »

I'm pretty new to Logic but it could feasibly be volume automation. I've accidentally had the same problem, say if I fade the end of a sound, I thought the delay would just carry on, but it cuts out in the same way you describe.
It's annoying coz I can't figure out how to remove the 'pop' from a chop while maintaining the delay properly. Any help on this would be gurtly lush  Two Thumbs

afaik Logic's automation is similar to Cubase's. You can use either "channel automation" or "part automation". Channel automation moves the volume on the channel fader in the Logic mixer, so that'd take out the original sound plus any insert effects such as reverb and delay that have been added to the channel. Part automation is drawn onto the audio waveform itself (the bits of sound that you move around on the arrange window), and happens to the part before it goes through any of the insert effects. So the latter (part automation) is what you're looking for. The manual (or Powdermonkey) would be able to be more specific about exactly how.

Also if you need to use the channel automation but still want the delay to keep ringing you could create a bus with a delay plugin on and the use the channel aux send whatsit to send a copy of the channel signal (post-fader) over to the delay on the seperate channel.
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« Reply #17 on: March 09, 2010, 11:56:54 »

http://en.wikiaudio.org/Logic:_Creating_fades This is what I'm on about.
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« Reply #18 on: March 09, 2010, 13:06:31 »

I'm pretty new to Logic but it could feasibly be volume automation. I've accidentally had the same problem, say if I fade the end of a sound, I thought the delay would just carry on, but it cuts out in the same way you describe.
It's annoying coz I can't figure out how to remove the 'pop' from a chop while maintaining the delay properly. Any help on this would be gurtly lush  Two Thumbs

afaik Logic's automation is similar to Cubase's. You can use either "channel automation" or "part automation". Channel automation moves the volume on the channel fader in the Logic mixer, so that'd take out the original sound plus any insert effects such as reverb and delay that have been added to the channel. Part automation is drawn onto the audio waveform itself (the bits of sound that you move around on the arrange window), and happens to the part before it goes through any of the insert effects. So the latter (part automation) is what you're looking for. The manual (or Powdermonkey) would be able to be more specific about exactly how.

Also if you need to use the channel automation but still want the delay to keep ringing you could create a bus with a delay plugin on and the use the channel aux send whatsit to send a copy of the channel signal (post-fader) over to the delay on the seperate channel.

Safe that's very helpful, cheers. Buses are next on my learn-list
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« Reply #19 on: March 09, 2010, 18:04:32 »

I'm pretty new to Logic but it could feasibly be volume automation. I've accidentally had the same problem, say if I fade the end of a sound, I thought the delay would just carry on, but it cuts out in the same way you describe.
It's annoying coz I can't figure out how to remove the 'pop' from a chop while maintaining the delay properly. Any help on this would be gurtly lush  Two Thumbs

afaik Logic's automation is similar to Cubase's. You can use either "channel automation" or "part automation". Channel automation moves the volume on the channel fader in the Logic mixer, so that'd take out the original sound plus any insert effects such as reverb and delay that have been added to the channel. Part automation is drawn onto the audio waveform itself (the bits of sound that you move around on the arrange window), and happens to the part before it goes through any of the insert effects. So the latter (part automation) is what you're looking for. The manual (or Powdermonkey) would be able to be more specific about exactly how.

Also if you need to use the channel automation but still want the delay to keep ringing you could create a bus with a delay plugin on and the use the channel aux send whatsit to send a copy of the channel signal (post-fader) over to the delay on the seperate channel.

Safe that's very helpful, cheers. Buses are next on my learn-list


Fortunately we offer the full service here on Hijack, including happy ending:

http://audio.tutsplus.com/tutorials/mixing-mastering/how-to-set-up-sendreturn-effects-in-logic-pro-9/


(I'm going to guess that you're on Logic 8 like myself, but the process is exactly the same)
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« Reply #20 on: March 11, 2010, 15:45:04 »

I'm pretty new to Logic but it could feasibly be volume automation. I've accidentally had the same problem, say if I fade the end of a sound, I thought the delay would just carry on, but it cuts out in the same way you describe.
It's annoying coz I can't figure out how to remove the 'pop' from a chop while maintaining the delay properly. Any help on this would be gurtly lush  Two Thumbs

That's a feasible option but it's an intermittent problem - as in sometimes it works, sometims it doesn't. I therefore don't think this is it (I will check though).

I've tried increasing the buffer size on my soundcard but this doesn't seem to help. I've come to the conclusion it's me just totally overloading my projects. I'm quite lazy in my automation so often have several channels with the same EXS or whatever doing pretty much the same thing but slightly differently processed. I think another real problem is the fact that I use a lot of audio, each instance with processing normally. Instead of using a sampler for my drums (like most sensible people) I'll have 25 odd tracks of audio drums and percussion. I think if i'm a bit more respectful and logical in my approach to general housekeeping the issue will go away. Cheers for all the tips though all. 
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« Reply #21 on: March 11, 2010, 15:49:20 »

I'm running a set of projects at the moment with 90-100 audio tracks loaded up. About 50 of them are takes we're not using so they're sitting there on mute. So all-in we've got about 40-50 mono audio tracks (24k,44.1) most with some Waves EQ and compression, plus around 8-10 stereo buses and 2 or 3 fx sends with reverbs/delays on. We didn't start to see any problems until fairly late on, and those problems are down to my soundcard being on its' last legs. You should be able to run a bunch of audio without too much trouble. Certainly 25 or so tracks is fairly average.  Undecided

(I run a 2.4GHz quadcore PC btw, but only got 2GB RAM up in there)
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« Reply #22 on: March 11, 2010, 16:03:48 »

All in audio maybe there's nearer 35 tracks by the mixdown stage. I'm also lazy on my sends / returns and don't bus as much as I should so will often have around 3 - 6 inserts on each channel too. I don't know though. I'm not sure how legit my copy of Logic is either which could contribute.
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« Reply #23 on: March 11, 2010, 16:18:42 »

hi dude


i think i may have the answer, its a bit long winded to explain and Hijack keeps timing out, so drop me a PM and i'll give ya a hand


:-)


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« Reply #24 on: March 11, 2010, 16:22:43 »

If either of you could be so kind as to post the results of said discussion, I am most curious about this issue. 2 or 3 people have mentioned it in the last couple of weeks.  Two Thumbs
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« Reply #25 on: March 11, 2010, 16:33:24 »

If either of you could be so kind as to post the results of said discussion, I am most curious about this issue. 2 or 3 people have mentioned it in the last couple of weeks.  Two Thumbs


its basically a simple case of placing a small sample of silence before the sample you are delaying, so as to remind the delay that it has something comming up on that track

it has worked everytime i have had the problem,but it only works if the information is in Audio, so it might be a case of importing the sample you are delaying into audio if you are triggering it with the ESX24 or something.

 Two Thumbs

i will post some pics of what i'm talking about a bit later if anyone still dosn't get it
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« Reply #26 on: March 11, 2010, 16:39:08 »

If either of you could be so kind as to post the results of said discussion, I am most curious about this issue. 2 or 3 people have mentioned it in the last couple of weeks.  Two Thumbs


its basically a simple case of placing a small sample of silence before the sample you are delaying, so as to remind the delay that it has something comming up on that track

it has worked everytime i have had the problem,but it only works if the information is in Audio, so it might be a case of importing the sample you are delaying into audio if you are triggering it with the ESX24 or something.

 Two Thumbs

i will post some pics of what i'm talking about a bit later if anyone still dosn't get it

Oh! I get it now. The same thing happens in Cubase for certain plugins (anything with look-ahead like a noise remover or amp simulator) but it only happens the very first time after loading the project, when the plugin is "woken up" by incoming audio. I'm guessing Logic shuts off plugins for efficiency if they're not used for a cetain amount of time, hence this issue at random intervals depending on how you've skipped through the track/where you've stopped etc.

Nice work, that makes too much sense not to be the answer.  Two Thumbs
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« Reply #27 on: March 14, 2010, 09:03:22 »

I used to get this problem in Logic 5.5 on the PC, always on delays.  I can't remember how I used to cure it, or even if I managed to though. I don't think it's happened on the Mac yet, and I'm on an old G4 Powerbook with 256meg less memory than recommended.

What happens if you re-arrange the tracks?  This might force it to render things in a different order and stop the problem if you moved the offending track right to the top.  Depends how Logic renders though.
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« Reply #28 on: March 20, 2010, 14:21:42 »

If either of you could be so kind as to post the results of said discussion, I am most curious about this issue. 2 or 3 people have mentioned it in the last couple of weeks.  Two Thumbs


its basically a simple case of placing a small sample of silence before the sample you are delaying, so as to remind the delay that it has something comming up on that track

it has worked everytime i have had the problem,but it only works if the information is in Audio, so it might be a case of importing the sample you are delaying into audio if you are triggering it with the ESX24 or something.

 Two Thumbs

i will post some pics of what i'm talking about a bit later if anyone still dosn't get it

So far this appears to have worked. I've had to place the blank audio after the sample is triggered though. I tried before and this didn't do anything. Putting it after seems to tell Logic that it needs to keep the delays going. I'll keep using this method on some other projects to test it but hopefully this has solved my problem!! Thanks a lot.  Slayer
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