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151  General / The Forum / Re: September Soundclouds on: September 19, 2011, 19:12:53

<a href="http://player.soundcloud.com/player.swf?url=http%3A%2F%2Fapi.soundcloud.com%2Ftracks%2F23686881" target="_blank">http://player.soundcloud.com/player.swf?url=http%3A%2F%2Fapi.soundcloud.com%2Ftracks%2F23686881</a>
152  General / The Forum / Re: So who here has made "Drank"? on: September 13, 2011, 20:38:36
Have been for a while! I have everything I need except that, and apparently its not the same without  Undecided


Prescription cough syrup you say, thanks!
153  General / The Forum / Re: So who here has made "Drank"? on: September 13, 2011, 18:14:24
where does one get the promethazine from?
154  General / The Exchange / Re: Pair of Studio/Dj monitors for sale - very nice top end clarity for production on: September 09, 2011, 10:53:16
my bro might have these off ya mate, what you got now?
155  General / The Forum / Re: Mac DJ advice on: September 05, 2011, 15:06:10
Can get a NAtive Instruments Audio 2 and a Kontrol X1 for about 200 or so, then he'll have everything he needs to run Traktor and 2 outs.
156  General / The Forum / Re: Brisfest 2011 LINE UP PREVIEW!!! on: September 01, 2011, 21:19:08
We (Morph) will be doing a Friday boat party for those of you needing an aquatic house and techno fix Smiley

Check out the Brisfest site for our guest in the next couple of days Smiley
157  General / The Forum / Re: What are you reading at the minute?!?! on: August 26, 2011, 13:21:19
I am about to begin reading The Stand by Stephen King.  Its rated by readers of his works as his best and I like a bit of virus-apocalypse-end of the world shit so I am looking forward to starting it.

When it comes to Stephen King, it's ALL about The Dark Tower series, best fiction I've ever read, it's epic.
158  General / The Forum / Re: Upload your Soundcloud tracks - August 2011 on: August 23, 2011, 22:54:18
<a href="http://player.soundcloud.com/player.swf?url=http%3A%2F%2Fapi.soundcloud.com%2Ftracks%2F21738290" target="_blank">http://player.soundcloud.com/player.swf?url=http%3A%2F%2Fapi.soundcloud.com%2Ftracks%2F21738290</a>
159  General / The Forum / Re: Iceland's Constitutional Council on: August 23, 2011, 22:35:19
delivered a copy of our banking reform proposals

Ben, interesting post, I agree about the possible ramifications. Who is the "our" here?

www.positivemoney.org.uk Smiley
160  General / The Forum / Re: Iceland's Constitutional Council on: August 23, 2011, 14:58:32
Some people I know flew over to Iceland as soon as the crash happened and the talk of repayment was happening, and about 10% of Icelands population were stood outside parliament protesting, they managed to get to meet the President and delivered a copy of our banking reform proposals to him and his team (so yes they are considering government backed debt free currency). Apparently they are still considering them but we've not had any direct contact yet, I think they are also talking to Laurence Kotlikoff about mutualised bank systems (or Limited Purpose Banking).

There's a guy who used to be head of the financial crimes part of the police over there who is campaigning for them to start creating their own money and to tell the IMF to do one. If Iceland go through with defaulting on their debt, denouncing the financial sector and refusing responsibility for about 10 people getting ludicrously rich by gambling with the wealth of their population, and then prosper through creating their own money, (undoubtedly moreso than if they accept the amount they need to repay otherwise) they could actually be the first country to turn themselves around, get out of the grip of the IMF, and start a domino effect which could change the world.

This constitutional redrafting could therefore be one of the most world changing events since long time if they don't succumb to the bullying, I know there are elements within the government who do want to go through with monetary reforms in the redrafting, and I know that they are subject to an unbelievable amount of pressure purely because of the domino effect they could start.
161  General / The Forum / Re: Consolidated riot thread: on: August 10, 2011, 16:21:33
The left and the right both have something to answer for, as Phillip Blond from Respublica said earlier the riots are multi-factoral, and as far as the role of politics goes, social libertarianism on the left and neo-liberalism on the right both helped create the kind of atmosphere where this sort of thing can happen. Unemployment, relative poverty and a lack of prospects, yes, but also breakdowns in family life, social cohesion and community ties.


and a culture where luxury items (like a mobile phone with a picture of an apple on it or some shoes with a tick down the side) become necessities

Consumerism must definitely be held to account as well yes, promoting materialist aspirations as drivers of social and economic progress has definitely fooled the right and the new labour movement into thinking it works out fine for everyone by looking at GDP figures.

But then again, if we weren't so greedy, the economy would fall to pieces, even more so.

If only our politicians weren't so obsessively attached to their own ideologies these events could be a nice catalyst for some synthesis between their schools of thought.
162  General / The Forum / Re: Consolidated riot thread: on: August 10, 2011, 15:58:19
The left and the right both have something to answer for, as Phillip Blond from Respublica said earlier the riots are multi-factoral, and as far as the role of politics goes, social libertarianism on the left and neo-liberalism on the right both helped create the kind of atmosphere where this sort of thing can happen. Unemployment, relative poverty and a lack of prospects, yes, but also breakdowns in family life, social cohesion and community ties.

Unfortunately you can already see the political maneuvering taking place and you can bet that they'll be arguing until the cows come home when parliament reconvenes, attacking the foundations of left and right philosophy and ascribing blame, it's going to bring out the very worst in politicians, the tories are going to get draconian and authoritarian.
163  General / The Forum / Re: Consolidated riot thread: on: August 09, 2011, 14:16:29
Drug Dealing is at an "all time high" because it's criminalised in the first place. Much of the "violent crime" which is not at an all time high by the way, the BCS reported about a 50% reduction in experiences of violence since the 1990's or something last year, is gang and drug related. Not that I'm saying drug laws are to blame, but it's just one example, of a culture we breed where aspirations and the visibility of wealth you can't realistically aspire to are everywhere, and the first contact you receive with your local police is to get arrested for carrying drugs.

Anyway I did enough ranting about this in the Stokes Croft thread, hope the Eton boys in the Cabinet listen to some people for once this time, and that some positive support for the youths in those communities comes out of it, because if all they see is a rise in police numbers and stop and searches, and their youth centres still get closed down, next time all their mates will come out as well.
164  General / The Forum / Re: Consolidated riot thread: on: August 09, 2011, 14:03:46

good quality compared to most others.

‎'When you cut facilities, slash jobs, abuse power, discriminate, drive people into deeper poverty and shoot people dead whilst refusing to provide answers or justice, the people will rise up and express their anger and frustration if you refuse to hear their cries. A riot is the language of the unheard.' Martin Luther King Jr.
Don't start quoting MLK when it's just a bunch of opportunistic cunts looking for some new Reebok Classics.

 Script Disgraceful extrapolation.

Whether you agree with it or not, almost all of that quote is directly applicable to the current situation.  Just saying.

No; it is just looting.

We've completely failed to deal with ghettoisation in this country and this really shouldn't come as a massive surprise to anybody.
Not 100% true, the general standard of living has risen in the past generation even if the rich/poor gap has widened.
No doubt there are underlying political issues but they are not entirely to blame for the goings on. I doubt 90% of those involved could articulate a political justification if they were given the chance.


The "general standard of living" is only one part of the hierarchy of needs. Prospects, aspirations, relative wealth are arguably far more important when it comes to "contentment", particularly when questioning why all this happened. Can't underestimate the power of stop and search and drugs laws in motivating people to fight the police as well, many young people are unprotected by the police when they need it but still get gripped for smoking spliffs on their own streets. This breeds an us versus them mentality we all know well when we look at a copper.
165  General / The Forum / Re: Consolidated riot thread: on: August 09, 2011, 13:47:22
No; it is just looting.

Yeah I'm sure socio-economic conditions have nothing to do with it, must just be social media and computer games or something....

As Ken Livingstone said last night "I'm not surprised, these youngsters are facing the bleakest future for 100 years." - People acting like they have no future because most of them feel like they don't for a good reason.

Not that anything is excused, but people don't always express their discontent in constructive ways, and contented people don't smash up their own neighbourhoods.

I can't remember which other politican said something about this is what happens when you encourage a culture of material aspiration, while most of those leaving school can't even expect to get a job, but they also summed it up well.

Condemn the violence, more police in the poor areas, and back off to fucking them over while you go on summer holidays in your Tuscany villa Dave. That'll fix it.

166  General / The Forum / Re: #Enfield on: August 08, 2011, 21:05:26
Ken Livingston on BBC 24 right now, chatting a fair bit of sense.

You beat me to it, as the woman said though, a little bit early to jump on the tories, it's as much his fault as Boris's that they are "facing the bleakest future for a hundred years"

Although, most of the areas that are kicking off had their spending cut nearly twice that of the Tory ones.
167  General / The Forum / Re: #Enfield on: August 07, 2011, 22:52:06
Yeah that's kind of strange, how can you miss and shoot the guy stood next to you!
168  General / The Forum / #Enfield on: August 07, 2011, 22:20:39
Sounds like it's kicking off there as well now
169  General / The Forum / Re: Upload your Soundcloud tracks - August 2011 on: August 03, 2011, 13:47:12
<a href="http://player.soundcloud.com/player.swf?url=http%3A%2F%2Fapi.soundcloud.com%2Ftracks%2F20350656" target="_blank">http://player.soundcloud.com/player.swf?url=http%3A%2F%2Fapi.soundcloud.com%2Ftracks%2F20350656</a>

Another one finished!
170  General / The Forum / Re: 9-11 New Info: Debunkers What You Say on: August 03, 2011, 13:41:55
What we have established in this thread is that the official story is rhubarb, with an extra helping of codswallop.

No we havent.

TIMEstretch! Shall we do a HAARP thread next?  Cheesy

lol - please do




I second this, please do a HAARP thread about how postgraduate students work in a facility doing earthquakes on haiti and whatnot.
171  General / The Forum / Re: Upload your Soundcloud tracks - August 2011 on: August 03, 2011, 12:56:46
<a href="http://player.soundcloud.com/player.swf?url=http%3A%2F%2Fapi.soundcloud.com%2Ftracks%2F18391104" target="_blank">http://player.soundcloud.com/player.swf?url=http%3A%2F%2Fapi.soundcloud.com%2Ftracks%2F18391104</a>

Liking this one.  Pimp

Cheers dude! liking the one in your OP too man, nice mixdown and those synths are lush!
172  General / The Forum / Re: Apple holding more cash than USA on: August 03, 2011, 12:31:27
@benofacial.
always makes me smile when you talk about these big players and say, yeah he's an expert, but his knowledge is a bit flimsy here and there.
so im interested to hear what would be your bullet point list, to solve the financial woes of the world, would be?


There isn't one, there are catastrophic problems in the derivatives industry, and the unavoidable contraction of economic activity following peak oil can't be easily solved or managed, but many or most of the problems attributed to debt based money are actually fairly easy to solve.

In bullet points the solutions are.

"Make banks ask our permission before they lend our money" - moves the burden of risk on to the depositor and away from the taxpayer, seperates bank deposits into deposits and money that has been lent, meaning no duplicate claims and no bank runs - "oh you want your money out, well you can have 300 of your 1000, you asked us to invest 70% of it because you wanted to earn interest."

"Return the power to create money to an independent agent of the state" - Give the power to create money to an independent body such as the Monetary Policy Committee, who then raise and lower the money supply to keep with targetting zero or low inflation, depending on the views of the government at the time, crucially, there has to be no interference from government to prevent "economic electioneering", we're still debating the best system of checks and balances for this, but with a transparent money creation mechanism it won't be hard for the public to just look at a balance sheet and see when the system is abused.

What can't really be bullet pointed is the transition between the current system and the new one, which we're still developing but will probably involve creating and lending the banks the quantity of money they need to become solvent and to comply with the new legislation and actually hold enough to meet their liabilities (all loans must be funded from deposits and no deposits can be available for transactions and on loan simultaneously), and then them paying it back over time and it being destroyed to avoid it ever circulating and causing inflation.

Download our submission to the Independent Commision on Banking from the Positive Money site (it's about 30 pages) or read the "our proposals" section, or if you want the real deal, read the actual legal text we've developed here They aren't neccessarily all "our" ideas, the essential heart of it is based on Irving Fishers "100% Money" but updated for the modern age. We work on the proposals with nef and the head of the finance and banking school at Southampton University, Richard Werner.

As I said, I'm not knocking Bill's knowledge of monetary history because he is excellent and very well respected, but when it comes to economics he isn't trained and hasn't gone into as much detail as we have working on the economic problems and the nature of the various solutions floating around. Not saying his knowledge is flawed exactly, a poor choice of words, all I'm saying is that it would be great if films went into the economics a bit more because only then you see how ridiculous, unfair, and at odds with capitalist values it is today. Not that history isn't useful.
173  General / The Forum / Re: Apple holding more cash than USA on: August 02, 2011, 14:35:00
Open University Sociology dun gon' made me so smart I can tell you which thinkers influenced a book just by looking at the cover, herp derp, herp derp.
174  General / The Forum / Re: Apple holding more cash than USA on: August 02, 2011, 13:39:47
I cant emphasize enough how much watching this film might seriously change how you see the world...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U71-KsDArFM

Just started watching -cheers for the link. Looks interesting but have to go to work now; my debts won't pay themselves  I am laughing, but I am also sad
Will catch the rest later on  Two Thumbs

I did actually watch all of this the other day. Pretty interesting stuff. Shame all the instruction on what to do is US-related. Seems to suggest debt-backed money is such a fundamental part of the British way that we're well and truly stuck with it.

Anyone know what the status is with the Bristol Pound? Is that being distributed as debt-backed currency by the banks or is it being printed by the council?

The Bristol Pound, as with all local currencies, is a "complementary currency" which means you just exchange it, one for one, with GBP. Debt backed money has only taken over from government money in the last two centuries, and now that we've reached "peak debt" with everyone maxed out and participating in the racket, it's unsurprisingly falling apart as it requires exponential growth forever. Going back won't be hard, it's better than the future we're faced with if we try to hold on.

I've met Bill Still who made this film, interesting guy but his grasp of economics is a little bit flawed when it comes to accurately explaining the way things work today, excellent historical analysis, if anybody fancies something on paper, history-wise, "The Lost Science of Money" by Stephen Zarlenga is the best book out there.
175  General / The Forum / Re: Upload your Soundcloud tracks - August 2011 on: July 29, 2011, 21:40:15
<a href="http://player.soundcloud.com/player.swf?url=http%3A%2F%2Fapi.soundcloud.com%2Ftracks%2F18435717" target="_blank">http://player.soundcloud.com/player.swf?url=http%3A%2F%2Fapi.soundcloud.com%2Ftracks%2F18435717</a>

<a href="http://player.soundcloud.com/player.swf?url=http%3A%2F%2Fapi.soundcloud.com%2Ftracks%2F18391104" target="_blank">http://player.soundcloud.com/player.swf?url=http%3A%2F%2Fapi.soundcloud.com%2Ftracks%2F18391104</a>

176  General / The Forum / Re: Android Essential Apps on: July 28, 2011, 14:51:34
If anyone wants a Samsung Galaxy S 2 brand new and unlocked (the best android phone out atm - tis an absolute beast) I have one for sale on ebay for 415, would take 365 for it.
177  General / The Forum / Re: 9-11 New Info: Debunkers What You Say on: July 28, 2011, 14:41:22
Well Brian Gerrish's mate told me that Common Purpose were involved in ritualistic child abuse, so that's where that came from. 
178  General / The Forum / Re: 9-11 New Info: Debunkers What You Say on: July 28, 2011, 14:12:58
Keep up to date on our website if you like - www.positivemoney.org.uk

Ron Paul: Good and honest libertarian Republican with some slightly flawed ideas about gold backed currencies, definitely not a lizard monger. Likes to sit down and have dinner with Dennis Kucinich in D.C and talk about money, Kucinich is like a US proponent of what we advocate.

Exposing Common Purpose Laugh A friend of a colleague works for them, I gather they like to laugh about Brian Gerrish quite a bit.

Common Purpose is just a slightly lefty networking and training organisation, it takes utterly paranoid and delusional ultraconservatives like Brian Gerrish to see the nonexistent sinister undertones in things like that. If he wasn't so retarded he'd be much better off going after influential groups like Compass and Demos than some totally unimportant charity like Common Purpose.

If you still think they are expousing satanic left wing messages to you, why not pay to go on one of their courses and report back on their brainwashing techniques?

179  General / The Forum / Re: 9-11 New Info: Debunkers What You Say on: July 28, 2011, 13:57:43
Money and banking reform. That video is hilarious, what an idiot  Laugh
180  General / The Forum / Re: 9-11 New Info: Debunkers What You Say on: July 28, 2011, 13:19:22
Through work I have come across Brian Gerrish and one of his colleagues called us over the phone to essentially tell us that what we were doing is pointless because the masons or whoever will stop us, I can attest to the fact that they are wildly insane - one of his friends told me that he was a Lord, and that his Uncle used to work for the Bank of England and told him personally that he controlled the world  Laugh
181  General / The Forum / Re: 9-11 New Info: Debunkers What You Say on: July 28, 2011, 01:59:32
"Building 7 looks like it's going to fall, it's burning on over fifteen floors and has major structural damage" could be misconstrued as saying "Building 7 looks like it's fallen!" - just like when someone famous ends up in hospital in a "life threatening condition" could end up via the rumour mill as "so and so has died".

Chinese Whispers from a very close approximation of the actual situation on the most hectic day for a New York journo ever. It wasn't like suddenly, out of nowhere the building exploded. That would be the simplest and most logical explanation.

"Well Mr President, as we had already employed a thousand other staff to make sure everything went to plan, someone in charge of making sure the BBC definitely noticed that a fifty storey skyscraper had collapsed was a good idea in retrospect and well worth it as, you know, the consequences of being exposed with definite proof like that aren't really all that severe for us. Making sure the BBC knew at the exact moment the building had fallen was well worth it, we just couldn't risk them not having eyes to see things like that themselves."

182  General / The Forum / Re: 9-11 New Info: Debunkers What You Say on: July 27, 2011, 17:59:01
If that is the only discrepancy in reporting during what must have been utter chaos then I'd say the BBC were doing alright given the situation.

Have you never passed on incorrect information before?

I've happened upon flawed logic as well. Like I said, I've never heard of an event being reported on the news, that hasn't happened, and then some while later it does happen.
So brand me a lunatic for finding that odd. If you want to say that the mistake happened because it was chaotic, then fine. It's still very fishy.

The BBC, on probably the most hectic day in their history, reporting a building next to some recently fallen buildings, with fires on more than half of the levels, that has experienced severe structural damage, to have fallen twenty minutes before it actually falls is not the same thing as reporting the second coming of Jesus twenty minutes before it happened.

Anyway, are you really stupid enough to think that if a false flag operation of this kind existed, with the potential to destabilise the entire world, destroy all political power held by america permanently, there would have insiders with foreknowledge working in the BBC, or insiders working for whoever was making press releases that day? Seriously?

"Yes Mr. President, the collapse schedules have been emailed to all the foreign dignitaries and the foreign media, they're all well aware of what's going to happen, don't worry I've labelled them all confidential and asked the journalists not to make copies. What's that? Why did I bother making collapse schedules? Well it's obviously paramount to the success of the operation that all the foreign media know exactly when the towers are going to fall, I mean it's not like they can find out that sort of thing for themselves is it, foreign media definitely need to know the schedule."
183  General / The Forum / Re: 9-11 New Info: Debunkers What You Say on: July 26, 2011, 14:15:23
The JFK speech is about communists and the thermite was used to cut steel to make it small enough to get onto lorries, and the building didn't collapse from fire, massive chunks of world trade center fell on it causing structural damage, which the videos don't like to show you.

To think that anybody would involve and rely on hundreds or at least several dozen Americans to blow up their own people in an operation that put the actual existence of America as a country at risk is stupid. The consequences of being caught would finish America on the global stage, the trust in the government domestically, and secure the dominance of China in the 21st Century. Any altruism hating CIA boss would never let that go down, the risks to the country and themselves and their organisations outweigh the benefits by a factor of millions, and there is a very high chance of being caught or whistleblown. Even if such a retarded plan made it as far as an impact assessment, all the analysts would say that authoritarian governments all over will use it to their advantage, meaning that comparatively America doesn't even do well out of it. Also it begs the question that if whichever insiders did it were so ominpotent, how did they fuck up the response to the most risky thing anybody ever did for the country so royally?

Even "allowing the event to go ahead" and making it easier for them would be impossible without involving dozens of staff, coordination to an unrealistic extent, infiltration of other agencies, etc etc, you can't do that kind of thing from a top down level securely enough considering what's at stake.

Where do you journalise nevermind?
184  General / The Forum / Re: battle against Costa on at the promenade Gloucester road on: July 24, 2011, 14:57:21
Costa are pretty good on their ethics, as far as I can remember they came top in an ethical consumer assessment of the big coffee chains, everything rainforest certified (but not Fairtrade) and pretty good on labour rights and environmental policy i think. Certainly no Tesco.

Does anybody know which shops are protesting against freedom of choice? I'll remember not to buy things from them anymore.
185  General / The Forum / Re: Burglar stabbed, homeowners arrested for murder. Discuss on: July 23, 2011, 14:31:18
Whats stopping some vengeful locals taking a young delinquent off the street, faking a burglary and killing the person?...

The same thing that stops them kidnapping a young delinquent, not bothering to fake a burglary and killing them, most people aren't just held back from murder by the threat of capture.

Maybe this is the exact thing some people have been waiting for, happens in america all the time.

Do you not think the number of potential murderers who are waiting for self defence laws to change in order for them to feel confident enough to murder pales in significance compared to the number who are harmed during home invasions?
186  General / The Forum / Re: Burglar stabbed, homeowners arrested for murder. Discuss on: July 23, 2011, 13:34:42
Whats stopping some vengeful locals taking a young delinquent off the street, faking a burglary and killing the person?...

The same thing that stops them kidnapping a young delinquent, not bothering to fake a burglary and killing them, most people aren't just held back from murder by the threat of capture.
187  General / The Forum / Re: How to get rid of hiss on your setup..... Ground loops? on: July 21, 2011, 15:09:44
dunno but the maplin website will tell you, not sure it totally depends on loads of things, but those isolators normally do the trick and yes I've heard that keeping stuff on one plug can help, but in my case it didn't and I needed an isolator until I got a mac
188  General / The Forum / Re: How to get rid of hiss on your setup..... Ground loops? on: July 21, 2011, 15:04:21
It'll be a power connector probably, used to do it on my laptop, yoyu can buy ground loop isolators from maplins etc
189  General / The Forum / SGP Ticket for sale, collection at the gate on: July 21, 2011, 12:57:23
Girlfriends unwanted ticket, offers considered!
190  General / The Forum / Re: Bitcoin and the Silk Road anonymous marketplace on: July 20, 2011, 12:21:20

Probably just more of the ones who joined in on the attacks using LOIC.

In other news some friends of mine successfully bought some extremely high purity coke from the Silk Road recently so it does work after all, he kind of got fucked over on the price though as the conversion for bitcoins fluctuates so much
191  General / The Forum / Re: The Philosophy Pub..first session Wed 20th8pm Big chill upstairs!!! on: July 14, 2011, 14:13:47
I could see this tangent going on for some time but seeing as you know more about it than I do and it all happened so far back in history as to be completely irrelevant to the matter at hand I will shut up now.  Two Thumbs

Read Lost Science of Money!

It is relevant though because of the implications of how to fix the money system..

If money evolved as barter then we should just be able to leave everyone to it and do away with pound sterling because the market will sort itself out with a new form of money.

If money only exists when someone decrees it to exist, as has historically been the case, then we still need a national currency but it needs to function properly.

This is why i found bitcoin so interesting because as far as I know it's the only currency ever to exist where the value is linked to anonymity and not a tangible commodity, and there isn't any person in control of it, although it was "created'.

Austrian School have been debating this evolution / money by decree thing with everyone else for last hundred years or so now.

In response to your edit this is again untrue, gold and silver were only set up as money because the coins were minted in it, peasants who eventually came to use gold denominated money had no "use" for it, but they were forced to use it because taxes were collected in gold coin. It doesn't happen naturally and there has never been a recorded case of a currency failing and people using non denominated gold, they just go back to bartering.

But yeah I agree this tangent could go on for a long time, but anyway Mary Mellor and Stephen Zarlenga have both written good books on this - Zarlengas one particularly is the best book on money out there.
192  General / The Forum / Re: The Philosophy Pub..first session Wed 20th8pm Big chill upstairs!!! on: July 14, 2011, 14:01:46
Money originated in Sumeria as nobles and princes, upper classes in general, started using clay tablets to record debts. An authority needs to define money to give consumers of it the confidence needed to give it the value it has.

Is it true or is it not that as much as there must be an originating authority there must also be an embrace of that idea amongst the populace? This is what I mean by a memetic development. If some Sumarian nobility invented stone tablets to record debt but everyone had gone "well actually I'll pay you in goats now because I don't like this 'money' idea you speak of" then it never would have taken off....

Well you said "I stand by the notion that no individual or body of people consciously decided to have a token-based economy", I was arguing against that really, and the idea that money evolved out of barter. It never evolved, it was created by law, and I don't think the Sumerian peasants were in a position to revolt really, but that's besides the point, money was only used by nobility for a very long time to record debts, barter for every day life carried on for a long time and there was no "replacing" of it by money as many believe, one is for trade the other was for debt.
193  General / The Forum / Re: The Philosophy Pub..first session Wed 20th8pm Big chill upstairs!!! on: July 14, 2011, 13:58:48

Zatoichi - If your arm hurts, you don't cut it off, you fix it. Money isn't broken, but the form it exists in currently is, as I said above, you can't centrally plan efficiently without making unethical subjective assumptions about that efficiency, and even then, information is transmitted in the price mechanism that allow the market to distribute far more effectively than a planner ever could because you can't get that information regarding needs and desires out of people without offering them a good at a price.


If my arm has gangrene it gets cut off.
We cannot get the controlling share of the world money away form the people that are messing everything up.

You work on maintaining the status quo, so no centrally planned mechanism is needed stra
ight away - just keep doing things the way there done just with out cash. Then all the basic things that need to be done that are blocked by lack of profit can be done (very simply put)

I still can't be

Just keep things going the way they were done without cash how exactly, you can't because of the economic calculation problem, if there is no money to distribute resources, it needs to be controlled  Smashed

You can take controlling share away through taxation and seignorage, and take the power that comes with it away by imposing lending guidance as we once had before the Big Bang in the 80's.

194  General / The Forum / Re: The Philosophy Pub..first session Wed 20th8pm Big chill upstairs!!! on: July 14, 2011, 13:25:55
You have just called me a pseudo-intellectual pinko dumb-ass chump... ok :shrug:

THe world without money argument covers just about everything when you assume it can be done. Replacing moneys functions is the intellectual sport not the lamaneting about what its done its the moving on bit that's fun.
If people can't strive for money what is there? How to get the shit jobs done? Are nations needed if there's no money? What new boundaries will appear? With money gone religion would be next? How to keep driving technology? The true shit on TV, what will replace it? If everything is being done well what will people complain about? What would you start a war over if money and relgion aren't invovled? Population centres, all the nice places on the planet will become too popular. How to regulate that?
etc etc



Money and the power it gives is the reason for the fucked up world we live in. To undo the damage sustained so far it has to be wrestled form the global big dicks - which will never happen.
That's your "regulate, distribute and account" approach.

So it needs to be removed from the equation not as a magic bullet because the problems that throws up along the way are bloody difficult to sort out - its a catalyst for change.
I'm not saying one day turn it off, some chap on here comprehensively outlined how that was a baaad idea.

Money developed  as we developed and was the best way to distribute resources when we couldn't circumnavigate the world in the time it takes a fish to go off.
Now we can, its time for the human race to evolve past the stage we've reached before 1000's of years a go and fucked up.

I'm not saying it wasn't necessary I'm saying its not needed anymore.

I'd entertain the idea of bringing it back but we need the transition to a world without it and back again to fix things, other wise we're going to have the current situation of everybody get what ever they can until it all goes tits up.

When people don't have the excuse that they're poor or disadvantaged it forces them to prove themselves in some way. [that statement has alot more words behind it]

Zatoichi - If your arm hurts, you don't cut it off, you fix it. Money isn't broken, but the form it exists in currently is, as I said above, you can't centrally plan efficiently without making unethical subjective assumptions about that efficiency, and even then, information is transmitted in the price mechanism that allow the market to distribute far more effectively than a planner ever could because you can't get that information regarding needs and desires out of people without offering them a good at a price.

Noodles, as Aristotle said "Money exists not by nature, but by law", money did not evolve memetically, see chapter 1 of "The Lost Science of Money' by Stephen Zarlenga - available in the usual places as a pdf or to buy from Amazon for something ridiculous like 250.

Money originated in Sumeria as nobles and princes, upper classes in general, started using clay tablets to record debts. An authority needs to define money to give consumers of it the confidence needed to give it the value it has.

The barter to gold emergent money story is a myth, listen to a podcast on positivemoney.org.uk I did where I talked to Professor Mary Mellor about this specifically.
195  General / The Forum / Re: The Philosophy Pub..first session Wed 20th8pm Big chill upstairs!!! on: July 13, 2011, 21:44:42
"How to replace the function of money in our society, it can be done but won't be done - discuss"

Easy - The Economic Calculation Problem, it's been done like 75 years ago, the marxists lost, but the Zeitgeist movement won't let that stop them.

communism doesn't work - it needs something new.

the transition bit it where it gets interesting - managing the minds of the world whilst they kick the money habit.

Harry Seldon...

The Zeigeist movement are missing the point of the Economic Calculation Problem which is that you can't qualitatively evaluate either the output of a person or factor of production or their efficiency through central planning. It's impossible no matter how "well" or fast you calculate to assign ordinal values to human desires and emotions because the information you'd need is unavailable and won't be communicated no matter how fast your planners are.

Information is transmitted through the price mechanism that can't be conveyed in any more efficient manner, doing away with it deprives people of the ability to choose in a resource scarce world, which no matter what the Zeigeist people say is the way it will always be.

Asimov didn't get it.
196  General / The Forum / Re: Hackgate. Rejoice in the slow, public death of the NoW... on: July 13, 2011, 18:18:53
There aren't papers available for the full political spectrum at all.

And there are still certain bias prevalent across ALL British media outlets (somewhat understandably as we are all British) that make te ideal of a free Market unworkable.

Whether or not there are a spectrum available, the fact that Murdoch owns what is essentially a monopoly of them means we are not subject to a free Market.

As for whether this will be brushed over... Depends if we see a change in what is deemed news worthy, or a more definable ideal of what is "public interest".

Also, has anyone been following George Micheals twitter?!  Perv, mmmhmmm, yummy *rubs hands*

A free market can be under monopoly control, a free market means free from government regulation, so in fact a market with monopoly controls is not free.
197  General / The Forum / Re: The Philosophy Pub..first session Wed 20th8pm Big chill upstairs!!! on: July 13, 2011, 17:38:27
"How to replace the function of money in our society, it can be done but won't be done - discuss"

Easy - The Economic Calculation Problem, it's been done like 75 years ago, the marxists lost, but the Zeitgeist movement won't let that stop them.
198  General / The Forum / Re: The Philosophy Pub on: July 10, 2011, 19:41:29
Wouldn't you kick people in the nuts if they debated against you?
199  General / The Forum / Re: Hackgate. Rejoice in the slow, public death of the NoW... on: July 09, 2011, 17:36:18
 Laugh Wes you are just too easy...

Which forums do you mod?
200  General / The Forum / Re: Crazy 'Aural' Illusion on: July 09, 2011, 16:02:43
I could understand the first one before hearing the rest of it but the second one was def incomprehensible
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